Brian Casel: [00:00:00]

You're listening to Open Threads, I'm Brian Casel. This is my podcast that I just launched here in 2022. It's a place where I can have conversations with founder friends, new and old about business, about products, but also about life and what it's like to do whatever it is that we do, trying to sustain a career in this thing, staying sane, having fun, enjoying our work and creating value.

So if you want to hear more about what I'm thinking for this new show and what I have in store, you can check out the trailer episode. But today for this first episode, I thought I would invite my buddy, Justin Jackson, founder of Transistor FM on to help me talk through some of the content strategy for this new podcast.

I Justin is a long time podcaster. He runs a podcast hosting company. Uh, he knows a thing or two [00:01:00] about publishing audio based content. So, you know, we had a really good conversation and I just wanted him to help me think through how to make this podcast actually interesting and how to keep it fresh and maybe a little bit different.

But for now, here's my conversation with Justin enjoy.

One of the main reasons I wanted to invite you on here as one of the first episodes on this new show that I'm calling open threads, you know, a thing or two about podcasting, obviously this is a new podcast and what I wanted to sort of pick your brain about here a little bit is obviously you see them every day, people who are starting up brand new podcasts in 2022.

I feel like I've gone through this cycle now with this new show, Open Threads, where I was really overthinking it, trying to be overly creative with it, trying to go back and forth between, should I be super innovative with this thing or just stick to a tried and true formula? And then I also need to balance in like, well, how much [00:02:00] of my time am I investing into this?

Because I do have a lot of other things to do, but I really care about keeping a high level of quality here. So I guess the first question that I have is what are you seeing overall in like the podcast and content landscape these days? There are so many different categories and subcategories of show types and formulas and format.

What's kind of like really interesting to you these days? And what do you think tends to get a lot of traction?

Justin Jackson: Yeah, there's a few things it's definitely true that the people who have already built an audience in other ways are having an easier time launching a show. So Ali Abdaal just launched a new show on Transistor and he did a few things right.

He already had an audience on YouTube and other places. He started talking about this new show that he was working on early on building anticipation and building anticipation, I think is the most underrated marketing tactic around. Once the show's already published, once the event has already happened, [00:03:00] it's kind of like, okay, but the way to capture people's interest.

Is in the weeks or months leading up to the launch, this thing's coming and it gives you a chance to bring it up multiple times. Like, Hey, I'm working on this new thing. It's not out yet, but if you're interested, you can sign up and get updates here. And so people that are building email, like waiting lists, and then actually sending that waiting list updates, people that are recording a trailer episode and then publishing it and submitting it to Apple and Spotify and everything right away.

So that people can then go in, it's like a placeholder in Apple podcasts or wherever people can go in and follow your show so that when you do publish your first episodes.

Brian Casel: I literally recorded the trailer episode this morning for this new thing. I technically didn't realize like I should think about getting that published ahead of the first episode.

Justin Jackson: Yes, I definitely would. I thought it would go out with the first episode. Yeah. And there's this old idea. The old playbook used [00:04:00] to be store up three episodes and then launch them all at once because the thinking was Apple's algorithm rewarded people downloading a bunch of episodes at once. That's still part of it, but from what we can tell, the algorithm will highlight folks that are getting lots of subscribes and are getting lots of listens.

And so subscribes is part of it for sure. And even setting aside Apple's algorithm, the more important thing is it's getting people to put the date on their calendar. It's like getting their email address or their mailing address before you send out the initial thing, right? You need that spot in their podcast app.

where they're already subscribed. And when you do launch that first episode, you've got people waiting to hear it. And then it'll pop up in that walled garden of their podcast app, which is this very special inbox. That's the key. You want to have a place in their inbox before you launch. And so this is just kind of like setting aside, creating a space for that first episode to land.[00:05:00]

And then they hopefully will recognize it because you've been teasing that it's coming building anticipation. It's something they're waiting for. So like when Ali Abdaal launches his new show that he's been talking about and teasing on Twitter and YouTube for months, when that episode pops into my podcast player, even though I have hundreds of other episodes to listen to, I'm going to check that one out first, because I've been hearing so much about it.

Right? Like, Oh, I got to listen to this. See what all the fuss is about. Right?

Brian Casel: I mean, that's the other thing I really want to dig into is like the content. So the angle of a show, the theme of a show, the promise, the hardest thing with podcasts, this is kind of like the difference between like podcasts and like blog content, like SEO, blog content, or YouTube even can be like a casual search, find what you're looking for, get some value and sort of move on.

With podcasting, you don't get that like quick win, but if you can get them over that massive hump up front of like committing to at least one episode, hopefully two episodes, and then hopefully they're hooked enough where they will listen to every [00:06:00] episode every week, then it's really high value, high reward relationship between the listener and the podcaster, but getting them there is so hard up front, right?

Because I think about there are all these shows. That really have an angle, right? Like I was just interviewed on some show. I think it was called like your first 10 podcasts. Every episode is about your first 10 customers. That's his thing. Another one is like, there's a show I listen to sometimes called good one.

It's with comedians and they unpack a single joke, how it was written, how it came together. It's like song exploder. That's another one that has like a very clear angle.

Justin Jackson: Yeah. Another way to say clear angle is to say a compelling promise. So the compelling promise of Conan O'Brien needs a friend is holy shit.

This guy's got all of this inside access to all these celebrities and comedians. And he's going to be able to talk to them. The compelling promise is like, he's going to get them in the door and is going to be able to have a conversation with them. It's like a Hollywood back room and you get to like, listen in on who these people are.

It's going to be [00:07:00] funny.

Brian Casel: In that vein. I mean, the super popular one. Now I listened to every episode is smart list. Yeah, exactly. It's like a bootstrapper podcast, but for like famous comedians and celebrities, like they're just talking about their work.

Justin Jackson: And it's interesting hearing the actual enticing thing is I'm going to get to feel like I'm their buddy.

Right? This is three buddies, famous buddies who are all celebrities. I'm going to get to feel what it's like to be a celebrity buddy, right? That's the compelling promise. The compelling promise of John and I show build your SAS was here's a couple of guys that have been in tech for a while. We're both in our late thirties.

We're both looking for a win and we're starting at zero and we have no idea where this is going to end up. And if you want to come along for the ride. jump aboard. And if you look at our downloads, you can definitely see the peak is where we both go full time. And then listens start to tail off. Once we've reached that objective, the compelling story arc of that is, okay, are these guys going to be able to do it?

And like getting [00:08:00] to see us build up MRR and sharing the struggles and all the thrashing. And John is stressed out because he's coming home for 10 hours at work and trying to work on Transistor. And I'm stressed out because we're running out of money. And it's like, that's the tension. That's what's compelling about it.

Brian Casel: That's like the value of these bootstrapper podcasts. What I find with the Bootstrapped Web audience is very similar, but it's like people are just along for the ride for the long term. And again, it's sort of like hanging out with your buddies. Like when I see people at conferences and stuff and sort of a weird relationship where they're like, they listen to everything I do.

I don't really know them too well. And that's why I tuned into build your SAS and a bunch of others like it basically just to hear like what my friends are up to this one that I'm starting now, I'm not trying to have a very specific angle on it. And that's a little bit intentional. I just want to have an open space.

I'm calling it open threads because it's just a space to have conversations with anyone about anything. And I know that's like the worst marketing angle that you could possibly have. I just wanted to have that open ended place. I had a [00:09:00] previous podcast called the productized podcast, which I just recently sold along with productized and everything.

I got up to like 100 episodes and I stopped doing it because I stopped being interested in talking about productized services. I started like interviewing like sass people on that and then it was like out of place. It was in the wrong channel, you know. I'm wrong audience for that. And so now I just wanted to have a place where it's not just me and Jordan.

I could just talk to anyone on this show and just talk about anything. There will be a lot of SaaS talk. There'll be a lot of marketing stuff. There'll be a lot of whatever. One of the things that I'm trying to do differently. I'm curious to hear your thoughts. You're a little bit unique. First of all, like when it comes to getting on the mics, because you like to just hop on and be super spontaneous.

What I'm trying to do is avoid the super typical interview show that we see everywhere. What I mean is like somebody invites a guest onto their podcast and they either do one of two things. They either go through their whole life story in 40 minutes, which is always a watered down, choppy, not very interesting interview.

Or the other one is like they literally ask the same 10 [00:10:00] questions to every single guest and they're not doing a lot of research. So what I'm trying to do here is bring a guest on and just have a conversation about one topic. Like this one that we're talking right now, I'm going to cut this in two, right?

Like one is going to be used for an episode all about how to start a new podcast, right? Our previous conversation was how to manage your daily workload and tasks and work life balance and all that. Like that'll be its own episode. Cause that's a topic.

Justin Jackson: Yes. The hard thing about an interview show is that you are somewhat limited by how entertaining the guest is.

A great example is like, go listen to Ben Stiller interview on Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend and then listen to Dana Carvey's episode. And the truth is Ben Stiller is just not a great Interview subject. He's really good at what he does. He's just a maniac, right? And it's interesting because he's making you laugh.

It's like all over the place. There's energy. Another great one is [00:11:00] David Grohl. Unbelievable. When he's fired up. And he was so fired up with Conan. It's just, it carries the interview. It's got its own momentum. And the challenge I had when I was doing product people and I was interviewing folks is that eventually you run out of folks and then you have to talk to people or you think someone will be interesting.

And so you dedicate the time to talking to them. And it just is like, Oh gosh, this is just not very interesting.

Brian Casel: That's the other thing, the burnout of interviewing guest after guest after guest. I do want to commit to having episodes every week, but I don't want to commit to the treadmill of constantly finding new guests and researching them, especially people that I'm not already friends with or that I don't already follow.

I don't know yet how I'm going to get around that. One idea is just to continuously re invite my friends to talk about different topics. It like this literally might turn into a cast of 10 to 15 people who just rotate in and out and we will have plenty of different topics that we can cover over time.[00:12:00]

Justin Jackson: I think that's a good format, especially when you can depend on a variety of folks to like come in because you do have to be a little bit choosy. Some people are great. Again, like Ben Stiller, he's great when it comes to like writing funny comedies and acting in them, but he's not good at like the off the cuff improvisation.

And he's not super energetic in person, and so he's just not going to be as good of an interview. And you want to pick and choose as much as you can the folks that are going to be somewhat

Brian Casel: compelling. The other thing that I'm trying to be conscious of is a lot of business owners. Start a podcast just to have a podcast because it's a popular trendy thing to do, but they're not really in it for the quality of the content.

Maybe they say they are, but at the end of the day, and I think a lot of that comes down to overly systematizing the process. Where it's like, I'm just going to show up. I'm going to ask my 10 questions and my assistant is going to book a whole list of random guests for me. And it's very bland. Right. But at the same time, like I am a business [00:13:00] owner and I am running a business.

I'm spending 99 percent of my time on ZipMessage and I don't want to be a full time podcaster, but I do really care about the level of quality, especially when it comes to interviewing and keeping it interesting for folks, you know, cause like Andrew with Mixergy sets like the gold standard of what it takes to do like pre interviews and really.

Spend the hours on researching and investigate, and then literally having an hour long call that's not recorded just to pre interview them, you know, and then have them on, right. I don't have that kind of time or resources. So I'm trying to like, kind of do a shortcut with like ZipMessage where I'll send like an upcoming guest, a ZipMessage.

And like, this is like the one or two topics I think we'll talk about. What do you think? Sometimes I do that. Sometimes I don't, I'm finding that's like an interesting way to still have some conscious effort before we hop on the mics. Again, you're kind of an exception because you just hop on and talk about whatever.

I think some effort in the prep really helped, really goes a long way, like more than people realize.

Justin Jackson: Yeah, it all depends because there's some people who prep [00:14:00] and they're just super boring. You have to do whatever it takes to be interesting and compelling. That is the key. Nobody wants to listen to a podcast because they think it's just going to be formulaic or Like this, a corporate branded podcast often don't work because it's like, I don't want to listen to just garbage.

I want to listen to something that's intriguing, that has some sort of compelling promise. Here's another example. Noah Kagan's podcast is interesting. Have you ever listened to that? The compelling promise there is. Noah is sometimes uncomfortably open and be open about things in his own life and ask questions of his guests that are just like these out of left field, very vulnerable or open or.

Maybe even like over the line of appropriate thing to ask, and that I listened for that. I want to hear these questions that just stopped the guest and they're like, Oh God, I guess I got to answer that, you know, or did he just ask him that too? Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:00] And that's what keeps me listening is okay. What's the zinger going to be, this episode?

Brian Casel: You know, that's like the Howard Stern thing where a lot of people know Stern as like the shock jock or whatever. He's like the world class interviewer because he has this sense for what the audience is listening for and what they want to get out of it. He has this constant sense of like, keep it interesting for the audience and keep it rolling.

I mean, Andrew Warner has the same thing too. Asking the question that I already had in my brain as a listener.

Justin Jackson: And being willing to push a little bit further. So like Howard Stern's great at this is he'll ask a question. There's a clip of him with Norm Macdonald. I'm a huge like Norm Macdonald fan and Norm's usual shtick on talk shows is just to be funny and he's super entertaining and.

You watch Norm because you don't know what he's going to say, but Howard is trying to get an honest, serious answer out of Norm and he just keeps pushing. Norm will go off, make a joke, and then Howard just keeps pushing, keeps pushing. And then at the end of the clip, he gets to Norm to say [00:16:00] something vulnerable about being a father.

Which you just don't see that side of norm very often. And it was being willing. It's risky because you're pushing people beyond what they might be comfortable with sometimes, but it does certainly make compelling radio.

Brian Casel: That actually brings me to this other goal of mine with this show. And I have not quite done this yet with the first few interviews that I've done.

I really want to get into this more. We could talk all day about business. We could talk all day about product and marketing, and that's what we all hear about on all these podcasts and on Twitter. I really want to spend a good portion of the content of this show on like people's lives outside of work.

I want to know more about what it's like to live in Vernon with a family of yours, because I feel like we have this incredible opportunity to be working in this industry. First of all, it's amazing that we're also public about what we're working on. We tweet and we podcast about what the things we do.

It's amazing. But we all come from different corners of the world, different life experiences, different life stages, like [00:17:00] families, no families traveling, like hobbies, interests, like previous careers before we got into software or whatever it might be. There's so much there that nobody even really knows unless people are willing to share it.

I feel like there are a lot of people in our industry who would be happy to talk about their amazing cooking hobby or travel experiences or something. If only they had a forum to be asked about it and have a place to have a conversation about it. I want to like pull more of that out of people.

Justin Jackson: One of my favorite things about listening to podcasts is when there's some vulnerability that pierces through the public politeness, like the stuff that is often felt internally, but never articulated externally.

And as a listener, it's such a gift. You know, I listened to Merlin Mann and John Roderick and they're older than me. So it's like, they're almost like my older Gen X brothers. And they will sometimes just reveal what it's like to be a 50 year old man. And some of these feelings [00:18:00] that a lot of us have felt, Roderick is like, I'm now this aging rock star and man, I made a lot of mistakes with my money.

And it's just like having people share that stuff is such a gift. And it's had a huge impact on my life. You know, I had this conversation with Nathan Barry where I was asking him all the same questions, you know, how's ConvertKit, how's MRR and all this stuff. And at some point we just got to this moment of vulnerability where he said, this has actually been the hardest.

And externally, everything looks amazing. Like his numbers are up. He's hiring more team members. Everything looks great. And he had this moment of vulnerability where he's like, this is actually the toughest time in my life. And I just started going to therapy and he's just like revealing these things about him.

And for me personally, but also for the audience, that's the part I heard about the most is like, wow, like Nathan's human. It's easy to see like, wow, this guy's just, he is an incredible individual. Like there's certainly [00:19:00] he is exceptional in many ways, but to see his humanness was unbelievably compelling and meaningful.

Like years later, when I was not doing good, that memory of him going to therapy. is what got me to go to therapy. It made me okay with it. You know, there's all these strings you can pull on that make something compelling and vulnerability and the expression of inner human stuff that often doesn't get talked about is part of what makes them great.

Brian Casel: Yeah. And I think like Nathan showing up to that interview and being willing to share that stuff. Part of it is probably because of the trust that you and him have built through a prior relationship. It could have also been like, this is something he feels is valuable to share with the world. And here's an opportunity to have this out there rather than talk about the same old things that he's always interviewed about.

Justin Jackson: Yeah. And there is a life cycle of those experiences.

Brian Casel: Because even as a listener, like a Nathan Barry interview, I've heard him and I've, I've met him, talked to him a bunch of [00:20:00] times and I've heard him on many podcasts. It gets to a point where it's like, I know the Nathan Barry story, so I'm not going to tune into that episode.

Right. And I want to try to avoid that. There's so much more to a person than just the product they happen to work on in the last few years, you know.

Justin Jackson: To be honest, like these are like my favorite episodes lately or interviews I've done lately are where I'm like arguing with somebody on Twitter about something and then I DM them and say, let's just get on a podcast.

Brian Casel: Those are really good. I especially tune into those when you do them. It's in the moment. You can't even plan for that kind of content.

Justin Jackson: Yeah. I think there's something about those conversations as well. Like to your point about digging more into people's lives, there's like these like fundamental contextual things that make all of our lives different.

You know, like Ben Ornstein and I had this where he was like, he tweeted something and it like triggered me emotionally. And it was like about finances or about how like the money was never a big motivator for him starting a business. And I was like, why am I triggered by this? And I'd like talk to him about it.[00:21:00]

In DMs. And then we ended up, I think we recorded as a podcast or maybe just as a Twitter space or something. You know, what came out is our contexts are just different. He doesn't have kids and I've had kids since I was 22. And so my whole life, I've had this feeling of trying to make a living for my family and everything, and always being a bit behind.

And like starting my own business was a huge motivator was I want to get to the point where I have, I don't have to worry about money anymore. Because I spent whatever the first two decades of my life doing that.

Brian Casel: I've also always had this craving, hear people's views on topics that we don't normally hear their actual views. This will turn off most people, but like, I do want to talk about politics and the world and events and things with people. Obviously I wouldn't make every episode about that. We're not going to get into it now, but like, obviously there's a major world event happening right now in Ukraine or whatever it might be as we get closer to a U S presidential election or something like that, where do people stand on certain issues or policies or things like [00:22:00] that, or things that are happening in our industry, like news, what's your take on that, right?

Every now and then I pop into Bill Simmons show, which is, you know, a lot about sports, but he'll mix it up with like a lot of repeat guests. On give a take about something that's going on, whether it's a NBA trade or whether it's a presidential election or something like, what's your take on it? Like, where are you on this topic?

I would really like to dig into that. I do have those conversations with people in private. A lot of times, like it's pretty surprising where people's views are, you know? And again, we're all from different locations in the world, different backgrounds, and I think we're in this unique position to have real friendships.

With people who are probably polar opposites when it comes to politics. People who I grew up with in, I grew up with people in New York. Most of us vote Democrat. Like that's just where we're from in this industry. We can be friends with anyone from.

Justin Jackson: Oh, especially in our space. There's some strong all over the spectrum, but there's some strong beliefs.

There's a big homeschooling crowd in the bootstrap solopreneur indie hacker space. Yeah.

Brian Casel: Which was [00:23:00] totally new. Like I didn't know anybody who comes from that background.

Justin Jackson: And I think starting a show with that intention, like my two favorite reviews for build your SAS are a one star review and a two star review.

And they're both saying, I listened to the show for learning about how to build a SAS, not about your political opinions or whatever. And John and I have always been like, well, it's okay. We care about this enough that we're going to talk about it, but it is. True. Like having a show that is from the beginning has more of that intention.

So people know what they're getting, like what they read on the label is what they're getting. I can understand, you know, people thinking, well, you know, I signed up for this here about this. It's triggering to hear about anything else.

Brian Casel: That's my thinking with this one is that I think every episode is going to be very different.

There will be plenty of episodes that people will just want to skip. I hope that they do because if they're not into that topic, then just skip it.

Justin Jackson: We'll have other topics. And the intention does matter, especially as you're thinking about how to launch it and how to promote it as you build anticipation.

Like I think that's a great compelling slogan to test is there's lots [00:24:00] of other podcasts that are talking about tactics and interviewing and all that stuff. But what's the other side of our community's lives?

Brian Casel: Literally just today I was in transistor and transistor asked me to write like a one sentence.

Justin Jackson: Yeah. Like a little show description. I'm clicking around. It's in settings or if it's in the trailer episode, it'd be in the summary, but you can have a show description in your settings.

Brian Casel: All right. So this was like my first draft of what I wrote for that one sentence thing. I got like Brian Castle hosts conversations with founder friends.

We talk startups, products, software, entrepreneurship, but also what's happening in our lives away from the screens and the revenue graphs. I tried to get some like keywords in there, you know, like startups and entrepreneurship and stuff like that.

Justin Jackson: And I think especially if you're able to get. email subscribers or people who you know are interested on Twitter or whatever, like those first people that sign up based on a teaser or based on a landing page, I find their feedback is so helpful.

It's exactly like the things you think about when you're [00:25:00] launching a product early on are the same things that you should think about when you're launching a podcast early on. People sign up and it's like, okay, dude, you heard a 32nd trailer or you read a description. I posted on Twitter. What are you doing here?

Like, what was it about that compelled you to sign up? And it could be just like, Oh, I'm a big fan. And I just want to see what you're doing next. But even then you can push deeper and go, okay, but when you read this description, which part resonates with you. And what would you like to see more of? Like if you wanted me to focus more on the start, do you want me to focus more on the startup stuff or the real life stuff, start engaging in those conversations.

And I think that's how you find the hook. What is the job to be done of the show? And like I said, when I listened to Merlin man and John Roderick, it's like, I want to hear like the vulnerable gritty real life stuff of two guys in their fifties. Cause I can identify I'm easing into that. I'm going to be there.

Eight years or whatever. And I want to hear about it, right?

Brian Casel: I've been [00:26:00] planning on launching this show for literally over a year, and I just got so busy and I delayed and procrastinated for so long. It's weird. I'm not new to podcasting, but part of it was I was getting a lot of feedback from founder friends and advisors and mastermind buddies who are like, Oh, podcasting like that's never going to get you customers for your SAS.

It's a terrible strategy. It's a waste of time and effort. And I sort of agree on a tactical level, I'm running ZipMessage. And obviously the goal is to grow customers, but I'm doing this podcast, not necessarily so that I hope it will grow traffic to my product. And the people who listen to the podcast will go buy my product.

Like, yes, they might hear an ad for ZipMessage on the show, but the goal is mostly to just have conversations with more people and just keep that marketing activity going, just me talk and keeping relationships going with people. Like it's not necessarily. About growing a large audience. I hope that happens over time.

It's more like an excuse to talk to Justin for an hour and we might as well record it and get it out there. And it's sort of good for both of us to get another piece of content out there [00:27:00] and like, just keeping those relationships going. Cause I thinking back on my whole career, literally the number one source of customers was indirectly being on podcasts, people either following mine or hearing me on someone else's show and then recommending my product to someone else.

Or I'm out there, so I'm able to get invited to conferences or invited to do an integration partnership like opportunities doors open that wouldn't otherwise open because I'm out here every week.

Justin Jackson: Yeah. We're so addicted to like direct attribution and increasingly, like I've been doing marketing now for SAS companies since 2008.

And the more I've been in marketing, the more I realize that direct attribution thing is a myth. It just is. There's so many layers and dynamics and connections that lead up to an opportunity, not just a sale or a new customer. But meeting somebody that's going to be important for the thing that's going to unlock your next few [00:28:00] steps or whatever.

And things like podcasting and blogging and going to conferences all create those opportunities. They all create that potential surface area for stuff to happen. And that's why I do it. Do I think there's going to be someone who listens to this one show and signs up for transistor? No, and it could happen.

But when I ask new customers why they signed up, it's a story. It's like, Oh man, I first heard you back in 2010. I hadn't heard about you for a while. And then I read this blog post you wrote. It's a series of events that culminate in a future. And the only way to create that magic is to show up and do stuff.

Like this, and I like podcasting if at nothing else, you're right. Like you had a great conversation that's now recorded. That's worth it in of itself. So I think that's exactly right.

Brian Casel: Yeah, for sure, man. Well, Hey, Justin, it's always a good time catching up with you and talking, talking products, [00:29:00] talking life.

This is awesome. I can't wait for these. This is going to be two episodes. We'll get these out in the next few weeks. I am now officially a Transistor FM customer with this show.

Justin Jackson: Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Brian Casel: I can't wait to dig into some of the other cool features you have in there. I saw you just launched like a website builder.

I'll definitely be playing around with that. Dynamic insertion. We didn't really talk about it, but that's an idea that I've been so excited about for a while. I'm trying to think like creatively on how I might use that in this new show, like putting in like some dynamically inserted content here.

Justin Jackson: Yeah.

That stuff is super fun. You're going to have a good way to experiment with different ideas.

Brian Casel: For sure. All right. Thanks a lot.

Justin Jackson: Yeah, this is great.