American Founder Life Abroad (and Back) w/ Craig Hewitt
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Brian Casel: [00:00:00]

Hey, it's Open Threads. It's my podcast. I'm Brian Casel. Welcome to it. Back on the show today is my buddy Craig Hewitt. He is the founder of Castos, the podcast hosting company, and Castos Productions. They do podcast editing. I'm a longtime customer, longtime fan of them and of Craig's.

So today we continue our conversation because Craig and his family took an interesting turn a couple years back. They moved from the states and went to live in France, in the south of France. Pretty amazing place. But then, you know, about a year ago they decided to move back to the States. So it's an interesting, perspective that Craig has on culture and how that compares. You know, living abroad, living in, in a place like Europe and France compared to living in America [00:01:00] today.

We recorded this near the end of 2022. and we talked about entrepreneurship, how that compares, you know, abroad versus you know, running a business in America. There's a whole lot of trade offs and some of them good, some of them bad some of them cultural, some of them, you know, structural and we, we talked about the highs and lows.

We even got, we, we got into a little politics. I guess it's a little difficult to, to avoid that sort of thing when we get into one of these chats, but, you know, it's a really good conversation. Really good really good perspective and a unique one here that, that Craig certainly has. So I think it was a great conversation.

Today is brought to you by ZipMessage. That's my product. It's for async messaging with your team, with your customers, with your clients. I'll tell you a thing or two about that later in the show. For now, let's talk to Craig about living abroad and coming back.

All right. Well, Craig Hewitt let's just let's roll right into the next episode here [00:02:00] I think it might be cool to just do sort of our random show here cuz you know there's a bunch of other loose ends that I think are interesting to talk about. We can go a number of different ways. We touched on a little bit of like the funding versus being bootstrapped and and hiring and things like that in the last episode, we can get into that. You and I have both been through different types of funding rounds. Another interesting thing and this sort of tracks back to my episode a few few weeks back with Laura Roeder who you know she she moved from the US to the UK I believe. You are American And then you you and your family moved to France. You and I actually hung out in France-

Craig Hewitt: Switzerland,

Brian Casel: -or that that that was

Craig Hewitt: Slightly better version of France. Yeah.

Brian Casel: So that was cool, but you you have since moved back. So I'm curious to know about living in the US versus living in Europe and and even as an entrepreneur what what that's all about. So I dunno where where do you wanna dive in

Craig Hewitt: Yeah, I Mean I think I think the that the living abroad and and all that is interesting you know maybe the more unique thing that [00:03:00] that I could talk about Like there's a lot of folks that have taken funding and and we can talk more about that for sure. I think like living abroad oh man there's so much to say that there's like AN answer, right? And I think that's like the short version. So yeah from the US moved to France when my son was three and my daughter was five. there until about 10 months ago and we moved back and we're in just outside Providence now.

Brian Casel: So how many years were you in France?

Craig Hewitt: Five years,

Brian Casel: Okay

Craig Hewitt: Five, five and a half years.

Brian Casel: and And where.. Are you from Florida originally?

Craig Hewitt: I'm from Florida originally. Yeah.

Brian Casel: Okay

Craig Hewitt: Um, and We moved and kind of was the plan. Like quit my job was running a Podcast Motor, decided we wanted to travel cuz our kids were young and we didn't have any pets or a house or anything like that. We had sold our house. And had planned on traveling a lot and then figuring out like where we wanted to live. Traveled for a couple of months and then landed in like the south of [00:04:00] France and it's like amazing. Right Like totally amazing. Ended up living-

Brian Casel: That's a pretty impressive spot to me for you guys to settle down. Because you know we we traveled around Europe, that was when you and I hung out for for a day there, and as much as I I loved seeing France, it it was really cool, it was definitely the most difficult country for us to make our way through.

Especially with the with the language barrier. My wife and I both have zero French you know speak a bit of Spanish but no no French like going into a restaurant was really difficult I I can't imagine sending my kids into school there you know.

Craig Hewitt: Yeah And I mean that that that's like a whole thing I mean like so so like education in a way was a lot better in France. Was much more rigorous like a perfect example my daughter's in sixth grade here now and we go to like open house the other day and they're like, Okay your your your student is gonna have 10 spelling words per quarter and they have to get those right. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? When she was [00:05:00] in fourth grade she would have 10 words every week and they're like not easy words. And so I'm like- this -just like. So that's good that it's more rigorous. It's bad that like in a more traditional learning environment they learn a a bunch of stupid stuff.

Like they had to memorize poems and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, what are you doing teaching my kid? Like this stuff that they're never gonna use. And I know that's like kind of the part of education, but like, I mean, from an education standpoint, like one another language, whatever, like the kids understood everything fine. But it's just like super old school there, whereas like here it's we move to Barrington where we live because it's one of the best like school districts, on the East coast at least. it's amazing, like the stuff they do and the technology they have and the kinds of programs they have in and outta school is is totally amazing and way better than in France And so

Brian Casel: Hmm

Craig Hewitt: That is by far the best [00:06:00] thing about living here like-

the.

Brian Casel: So if I understand correctly you mean like the technology and the maybe the format or the structure and the resources available in the US have come a long way and they're a little bit more maybe a little bit more cutting edge. But the teaching style and the curriculum in France is still from before, which is probably more rigorous than than where the US has gone. And I I definitely see this too like what gets to me sometimes about public education and my my kids are in first grade and third grade here in in public school. But I wonder how this plays out as they get a little bit older is like, I've always found that like school is not really teaching like problem solving. Like to me that's the most important piece of whatever it is like. Take a bunch of pieces and connect the dots and and we've got this big hairy problem, we've got a lot of options, we've gotta figure it out. Maybe that's just the entrepreneur in me but like looking back on my schooling in public school is just a [00:07:00] lot about memorization, like read the textbook, memorize the textbook, write it down on the test and then forget it all the next day. Like you know I don't know how that's helpful.

Craig Hewitt: I, I think that like, I'm sure it's not great, but here it's a lot better than it was in France. Cause there was zero of that. It was study for the take the they have standardized tests in middle school and high school that like dictate your entire life. So like it's just I don't know if draconian is the right word, but like really traditional like authoritarian.

Brian Casel: Hmm

Craig Hewitt: yeah, I, I agree. I mean, I think that like, schools can't teach things like entrepreneurship too much, you know. And and there's probably a lot of opportunity there. Yeah I mean I think like aside from education, yeah language is a big thing. We live there five and and a half years and my wife and I are are you know quite fluent in French but it's like a continuum right. Like a spectrum like you are fluent to be able to talk to your [00:08:00] know the other kids in the village and their parents about like normal daily stuff. But like our house got broken into one time and I had to the police station , and like, those are not words you use when you're talking about the soccer team, you know?

And so like that what we, what my wife and I say is, it's like just the mental overhead of living in another culture, you know, like your fucking visa and how long until that has to renew and what are you doing and how many days have you been in the United States for this tax break that you get? And do you have to file two sets of taxes now because you didn't, know, whatever.

And like, it's just all this stuff that like, now I'm in the US and like I don't have to do anything. I don't have to worry about any of that. Like everybody speaks English, I understand how everything works cuz this is like where I grew up and that. so it's like super easy. But at the same time like living in Europe is amazing right Because like can travel, like I looked it up the other day, you could travel Geneva to Rome for $35 [00:09:00] and it's like that, that doesn't exist anywhere around here And it's just yeah Europe is so cool. But it's not it's not exclusive to Europe.

Brian Casel: I guess that on the travel thing there's there's the argument to be made that like you're a visitor in Europe so it's amazing for you to go see all these places that are easily accessible when you live there, right. But you're also easily accessible to New York City and Boston,

Craig Hewitt: Yeah, yeah.

Brian Casel: Which are also amazing cities. But to us we take them for granted cuz we see 'em all the time. Right?

Craig Hewitt: Totally true.

Brian Casel: I'm also curious about the cultural difference. Whether it's day to day life or maybe being a business owner or any of that.. But like, correct me if I'm wrong here, one one observation that I seem to have is it seems like these days, and this could just be us because we're very- me and and my wife, my family- we're pretty quiet, we're not super social and outgoing locally here. You know we have our friends, we have family and and I have a lot of my [00:10:00] connections with folks but like on my block, in my neighborhood, neighbors are not hanging out and talking to each other. We go to the school functions, most parents are not talking to each other. There's a few that are friendly and we're friendly with some but like it's not a big social thing. And we were hanging out in Paris we had an Airbnb for like a week or two over there and everyone on the block was like getting together for happy hour and you know young professionals with kids.

Craig Hewitt: Yeah.

Brian Casel: I don't know like is that something that that you notice like America is is, especially in the suburbs I think, everyone sort of locks their doors stays stays in their in their lane. And there's not as much socializing it At least not even when I was a kid too. Like you.. I don't know.

Craig Hewitt: Yeah. It's tough man. Like I I agree. Like and I'm trying to make sure I don't like generalize too much because we've just not been here that long. You know we moved in December and it's the fucking winter in New England and like nobody does anything. And then like yeah in the [00:11:00] We got out a lot more and now it's fall again and yeah. But I mean we've been here 10 months and we've been like over to people's house or had people over four or five times I think in 10 months whereas before it was all the time every weekend. having, having people over or whatever. Conversely though like our kids are all over the place. I mean we live in a place, probably like you, where like they just run down the street and go to someone's house and say they'll be back in two hours and and in that respect it's about the same. Like so for the kids they are as social and open or whatever. as, As they were before. And I think that like if you ask my kids they'll probably say that like they're making deeper connections here. Because there's not that, even very small, subtle, like language or cultural know like -

-references to you know like Big Lebowski kind of, you know, references that like they have no idea cause they didn't grow up in France. They're not French they don't get all that stuff. [00:12:00] You know, they like eat tacos. And you know, they eat their waffles with a fork instead of rolling 'em up. Uh, Like it's all these little things that you a hundred percent will always be different living in another.. world, in another country. Even if lived there a really long time and generally fit in. It's all those little things. And, and I think that's kind of what got us, is like it's all the little things that just after a while are just like, Fuck, this is really hard.

Brian Casel: Yep Yep. So yeah So like what was the the decision to move back? Like what what went into that?

Craig Hewitt: Yeah, I mean it it was kind of a lot of little things right. One is taxes you know I went from not paying myself anything basically when we moved and, cuz we had a whole ton of savings, paying myself you good salary and like that's a big tax bill in France. And yeah didn't wanna live there. If I have a really big tax bill someday. That was one. That maybe was like the biggest but maybe not the most urgent.

My daughter [00:13:00] went into like the equivalent of middle school there and school got really hard and so like doing school work with a middle schooler is hard but in another language is super hard. And so like legit like couldn't help her with her homework. And that was like really hard. Now like, middle school's four years there, so she was in the second half of fifth grade when we moved back here, fine. But now is in middle school here and is doing like geometry and shit. And I'm like, Whoa, I gotta, like, I'm an engineer too, and I'm like, I gotta like figure this stuff out again.

Brian Casel: I I wouldn't be able to do like sixth or seventh grade work here in America

Craig Hewitt: Yeah. I mean, so like we that we couldn't really help them at all and and-

Brian Casel: But it does seem like good timing for the kids' age to have a big move like that. Like you're not in in smack in the middle of high school .

Craig Hewitt: Yeah. Yeah So so basically said like somewhere around here we if we're gonna do it we gotta do it. We have older parents and being close to them like is important as more of our help. And that was good cuz my dad was in the hospital for a week and a half in the winter [00:14:00] and was able to go down to Orlando and be with them and help my mom. Yeah just a lot of lot of little things. You can't like.. We couldn't buy a house because like if you're not on like the super badass visa you can't qualify for mortgage and like we'd rented a house for five years and that's lame like for your personal financial situation. So just a lot of those.. A lot of those little things and now we're and now we're back here and a lot of those things are better you know. And then at the same time we're like, Man we had like.. We lived in like Tahoe basically you know like we lived in a really really sweet place and a lot of the physical location where we live now is not as good but like the school, and it's ultra safe, pretty close to a lot of really cool stuff. So yeah.

Brian Casel: I I think it's cool that you move back to the Northeast I feel like most people, in our circles at least, they tend to like default to somewhere out west. Like Portland or Colorado or whatever like Chicago like one one of the [00:15:00] like.. I feel like the northeast gets sort of like slept on. I I mean sometimes for good reason like yeah it can be overcrowded up here. It could be more expensive than it should be but like we've got some pretty decent beaches here. We've got New York City, Boston, we've got some mountains up here in the northeast You know.

Craig Hewitt: Yeah.

Brian Casel: There's there's there's stuff to like up here. And we've got the fall which is just kicking in now

Craig Hewitt: Yeah. Yeah I mean, I think that like objectively, you know, Amanda, my wife and I say like, I don't think there's like a place that is so much better in the US than where we live. Like, yeah, sure, maybe we could have moved to Portland and it would be a little bit better, but there's a lot of really bad things about Portland.

Brian Casel: Mm-hmm

Craig Hewitt: That just don't exist here. And so like, yeah, I don't think that that's not a significant enough difference to make us think about like moving again. Like the only thing we think about is like, now that we've lived here, are the bad things that we saw in Europe really that bad or were we just kind of like overly sensitive to them. And so yeah I mean I I think there's a chance we'll end up back there.

Brian Casel: Really? You you think you would move back again?

Craig Hewitt: Yeah.[00:16:00]

Brian Casel: Interesting. Like after kids graduate that sort of thing?

Craig Hewitt: A hundred percent after kids graduate we will .

Brian Casel: Yeah yeah.

Craig Hewitt: And maybe before, because I mean, I don't have to tell you about like fucking guns and safety and stuff like that, but I mean, I will say, a hundred percent if there is another-

Brian Casel: You've mentioned that to me a couple times I I'm curious about that. Cause this is this has absolutely crossed my mind a hundred times. Probably most parents in America these days. And look I I don't wanna get too politically here but like-

Craig Hewitt: I'm happy to get very political.

Brian Casel: Alright but like guns specifically it it's so terrible that it has to cross my mind every time my kids go to school. I mean literally every morning. I'm not joking about this I think about this every single morning, Like what if today is the day that that the news story that's gonna happen somewhere What if it happens here today. You know it's just fucking terrible. And you know I've said this a number of times when when one of these big, you know shootings, happen like[00:17:00] at what point is it irresponsible for me as a parent to not actively think about leaving because of this you know. Is like at a certain point it's like how irresponsible can you be to stay like you know. But millions and millions of us are here. So it's know

Craig Hewitt: I mean I I just like.. Having lived in a place where you never think about it cuz it just doesn't exist. It's significant you know like the mental overhead, cause I'm in the same way you know. I I hug and kiss my son every day when he gets on the school bus and I kiss my daughter on the way out the door cuz she walks to the middle school. I only do that because yeah I think fuck like this is the day and if I don't hug and kiss him this time then I'm gonna regret the hell out of. Whereas before I would just be like, Later, you guys have fun, because I know they're coming home you know. And-

Brian Casel: Yeah man

Craig Hewitt: I mean a hundred percent if there's another big thing like that like our kids will not finish the day at school and we [00:18:00] will not be here that night. Like just gone because it's so easy. Like anyone listening to this show could move to Greece, Portugal, Ireland the UK instantly, right?

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Okay, back to the show.

The other thing that gets to me is is the healthcare system. Again not to get too into the weeds but that this is the kind of thing that like, just as a customer of a service, if it were any other service I'd be like, Yeah no this is totally ridiculous I'm taking my business elsewhere. Why Like.. Why are we paying so much for such terrible care, for such bureaucracy and crazy systems between insurance [00:20:00] companies and you know specialists all over the place. And I mean it's just unreal. I mean okay literally this week, So my my daughter had a had a freak allergic reaction to a fruit. She's never had the allergic reaction before. We had to put her on an ambulance went to the ER a couple months ago. She was fine after a few hours but it was it was a scare right? But it was nothing.. Like it was nothing. Like it was a five minute ambulance ride to the ER, had some a small dose of medicine and she was fine. We just got the bill for $1,700, you know, like four months later. And that's just that's what it is you know. And this is like a regular occurrence.

Craig Hewitt: Yeah I mean this would be really interesting. Someone way smarter than me, I'm sure, listening to this may be able to like, actually do the math. But like, yeah, you, you do the math on what your taxes get you here versus in a place like whatever, you know, the Netherlands or France or Portugal or whatever. And you think about [00:21:00] retirement, you think about college, you think about healthcare, you think about safety. You think about school, that a lot of people have to send their kids to private school. And like, yeah, again, I, I haven't done the math. I'm sure I'm not like, smart enough to, to do the math, but it's probably like a wash, you know? And I said we moved-

Brian Casel: Yeah

Craig Hewitt: -back here because of taxes. I don't know if that's right. Like I don't know that.. Well certainly there's not an amount of money that would make me feel good about about me ki my kids not being safe. And I didn't appreciate that before we moved. And like, definitely like that part of the decision I regret and, and that would a hundred percent be the reason we leave again.

Brian Casel: I think as an American like what's what's really hard about it for me now.. I don't think that it's just getting older. I I I think what happened was like 10, 15, 20 years ago, there were plenty of problems in America then too. But there was a sense of like, Well things are probably gonna [00:22:00] get better. Maybe if we you know in in the next election cycle or you know...

Craig Hewitt: I totally agree. Yeah.

Brian Casel: -you know certain things are moving in the right direction and you know we could see mechanically how things could get better. And now there's just a sense of like hopelessness. Like like,

Craig Hewitt: No, this is as good as it's is as good as it's gonna get, right? Because you have like a reasonable person running the country right now, and..

Brian Casel: But and and like all logic is like it the next election cycle is probably not gonna work out so well And..

Craig Hewitt: Yeah.

Brian Casel: So it's like-

Craig Hewitt: A reasonable person will not be running the country in two years. And like that is, that is just asinine, right? Like for the most-

Brian Casel: Yeah

Craig Hewitt: -successful country in the world. Right. By a lot of measures to, to be just so dysfunctional at in the leadership role. Like it's just astounding..

Brian Casel: And even when the person that you might vote for is in the is in the White House like Congress is is the most dysfunctional it's ever been in history. Right so it's like you know basic laws that shouldn't even be arguable just cannot [00:23:00] get passed or and then if they are passed then they can't even implement them and it's just like ridiculous. So at a certain point it's like well what what are we doing here you know.

Craig Hewitt: Yeah. I mean I think to be fair everywhere has their version of this. Right.

Brian Casel: Sure

Craig Hewitt: And it is your ability to be aware of it here versus if you live in another country like you don't get all this stuff you know. Even if it's an English speaking country. Yeah and I think it's just that that the issues that every country has, right.

Brian Casel: Mm-hmm.

Craig Hewitt: It might not be guns in most other countries, but it's healthcare or it's retirement or it's the cost of housing or whatever. I think everyone has their problems and so like thinking about leaving just for that is probably not what I would do. But if the specific issues that we have are significant enough, then, then I think it's worth considering.

Brian Casel: Yeah.

Craig Hewitt: And that's just me and my wife

Brian Casel: Well I guess sort of you know getting it back to a somewhat positive note as we wrap this up here like, I'm curious to know [00:24:00] about entrepreneurship, you know again like, culturally between living in America owning a business in America especially an online business compared to Europe. I get the sense that startup culture is global now. It's not just an American thing I mean people think America and capitalism and and it's sort of like in our blood here. Maybe maybe there's some some level of that I mean both my grandfathers were were small business owners. My father's a small business owner. And so like there it sort of runs in in the blood here at least for me and I know for a lot of Americans. But curious if you've seen anything like in terms of the culture of being a business owner. Whether there's like a more more aggressive nature for or or you know finding and seeking opportunities as an American versus you know people living somewhere else?

Craig Hewitt: Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I think that yeah like I I said to a lot of my friends that like I didn't want my kids to grow up with the kind of entitled like French attitude about a lot [00:25:00] of things. Had a lot of French friends and they're amazing and maybe they'll listen to this but.. But like we are like, I don't know but just I'll figure it out, Of course I can do this because I want to and that is not universal. You know there are a lot-

Brian Casel: Yep

Craig Hewitt: -of really smart, successful people in a lot of countries that just like, they just don't think about that at all, you know? And-

Brian Casel: Mm-hmm.

Craig Hewitt: -that's a huge generalization but that's me living in both worlds and having friends both places that like, very American to say like, sure, I'll just go figure it out. You know, build a parachute on the way down. It's much less common, I'll say, at least in, in like in France at least. And I think that like as you get into, more progressive countries, it becomes more common, right? Like again, you know, Scandinavian countries, you know, Ireland, UK, more common.

Brian Casel: I think that, that, especially these days, one thing that, all these like non-American countries and, especially first world, [00:26:00] so Canada, UK, France, I don't know about France specifically, but like I see a lot of our friends in Canada and UK, like it is easier for them to get into entrepreneurship than it is for an American today, you know. Because again, the things we were talking about, main, mainly healthcare, being tied to your employer in America and, and then still costing a ton of money is a huge blocker to entrepreneurship. And it, and that's, that's what amazes me about American society today, is that we are not like.. And that's what really angers me about, of course, this went right back to the but the, but you know, that's what really angers me about, about healthcare and the folks who are fighting for more healthcare coverage. Cuz they're not making the argument for the entrepreneur, you know.

The, the right wing of this country sort of gets credit as like the business wing, when really, if, if you wanna talk about business and entrepreneurship, make it easier, remove the barriers, you know, let folks like [00:27:00] me buy into a public option. You know, do, do stuff like that to make easier to go out on your own and leave full-time employment and start something, because everything else is easier. You can do it online, you can find customers anywhere. You can spin up a Stripe account. Those barriers from decades ago are not there anymore. It's just the, government barriers that make it more, more difficult now, Um, And, and so then we, we have a lot of friends in Canada and UK who, like, you know, you see a lot of great entrepreneurs pop up there because they can take those risks earlier, younger, because that safety net is there, you know. In a lot of ways, it just seems like a backwards world we're living on, living in these days.

Craig Hewitt: A hundred percent, man. Yeah. I I will will say that the most valuable thing we learned, I think is like the, the work life balance. Again, this is just like most of Europe, but like, yeah, a month of vacation the summer is just what you do. And like, you know, this summer living here [00:28:00] we had one of our friends actually went on vacation, maybe two.

Brian Casel: Yeah

Craig Hewitt: Everyone else was like, oh, we're just gonna stay around here and the kids are in camp or whatever. I'm like, man, like our little village in France, literally no one is there the month of August. Literally the whole place is empty. Like-

Brian Casel: Yeah

Craig Hewitt: Everyone goes to Italy or the south of France or the the coast or whatever. And it's awesome. It's because they're like.. It's just like one, like culture is there to support it, right? Just it's cool that you're just not there for a month and work just doesn't exist and all this kind of stuff. And, and like I never really embraced it cuz I was living like I was working a US schedule basically from France. And, and so like, I think that's just the one thing that like is really great, right, about most other places is like they legit have work life balance

Brian Casel: Yeah.

Craig Hewitt: Whereas we're always chasing more and like that's cool, that's why we're so [00:29:00] successful on the whole. It's also why there's just a lot of of stress related issues.

Brian Casel: Mm-hmm. , I, I know it all too well. I, I always feel like I'll never get away from the, from the grind, you know? And we take, and we take a lot of vacations, but, but I'm still working on the plane there and on the plane ride home and, you know, working 50 hour weeks plus, and I don't know.

Craig Hewitt: Yep.

Brian Casel: That's,

Craig Hewitt: Going on on vacation tomorrow, man. Excited.

Brian Casel: Are you, where are you going?

Craig Hewitt: Uh, we're gonna Phoenix to visit some family and head up to Grand Canyon for a bit.

Brian Casel: Sweet. Yeah. That, that's one thing we've got going for us every year. We've got some pretty beautiful uh, national parks. It's been one of our uh, one of our, you know, family sort of goals is to hit, hit 'em all. We, we did Grand Canyon a few years ago. We just this past summer we went to uh, Yellowstone National Park, Grand Teton, Badlands. That, that was a really, really beautiful So,

Craig Hewitt: Awesome

Brian Casel: Good stuff, man. Well, let's uh, let's wrap it there. Craig always, always a pleasure [00:30:00] talking talking with you.

Craig Hewitt: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Casel: Right, man. All right, later.

Well, that wraps up today's Open Thread. Hey, tell me what you think. I'm on Twitter @casjam, and right after that, head over to iTunes and give this show a five star review. Really helps it reach more folks like us. I appreciate it. Talk to you next week.