Brian Casel: [00:00:00] Hey, you're listening to Open Threads. I'm Brian Casel. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. So today on the show, I've got my longtime friend, Matt Medeiros. I think of him as just the podcaster in the WordPress space, but he's grown outside of that, of course. And now he's the executive producer over at Castos. The WordPress hosting company.

But what I wanted to get into with Matt in this conversation is news. News as a business model when it comes to podcast content. So, you know, Matt's personal focus has been growing podcasts of his own and treating that as the business model. So he's, he's experimented with quite a few models around like advertising on podcasts.

And more recently he's doing, you know, sort of like breaking news in the business WordPress products [00:01:00] space. And this is fascinating to me because I'm a news junkie myself of like world news and us news and things like that. Of course, tech news as well. And I've always sort of thought about the idea of, of incorporating like news as a content strategy in my businesses, but my hesitation, the reason I never really got into that is because it just seems so difficult.

To actually execute it, to do the news gathering, to have like a journalistic approach to it, because you really need to have like a strong commitment to like the daily weekly news cycle and like following the beat, if you will. So we got into how Matt is actually innovating on that front and building a nice little business around this idea of news.

He's really focused on the WordPress news space, but I think this is applicable in any niche space. Let's talk to Matt. Enjoy.

Hey, Matt. Yeah. Thanks for joining me today. It's good to connect with you on yet another [00:02:00] podcast. I feel like we're always talking to each other on air.

Matt Medeiros: It's always a pleasure to be on your podcast. If I were ever to have to call in a podcast favor, I would have to say, Hey, Brian, bring me on to one of your shows at some point, but pleasure to be here.

Brian Casel: Anytime, man. That's part of the reason I started this show is just to talk to people I like, and we can talk about whatever. And especially bringing someone on who is real comfortable on the mics. You've been doing it for years. So I think we'll be talking all about that. I mean, one thing that I've been noticing, you've had so many different shows over the years.

You've had the Matt Report. Guessing is like the longest running show that you've been doing, but you've been involved in so many different things between like Castos. And I've been seeing your thing with the WP minute. I think you were doing something local to your area as well, right?

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. South coast dot FM.

That's a labor of love that I do probably once every other month, just to keep a pulse on the area. And highlight people who are building businesses here and then hosting the audience podcast in my professional life, hosting the audience podcast for [00:03:00] Castos. And I'm also an executive producer for our other podcasts that we acquired, uh, threeclipspodcast. com. And that's been an interesting role for me to experience and learn on the job with.

Brian Casel: Yeah. What I'd like to really unpack in this part of our conversation is, I guess it's in the WP minute, but maybe you do this sort of thing in your other podcasts to like, where you're really focusing on news. As a content type, because in our industry, we see a lot of interview based shows.

And then we see a lot of just co host shows like I do with Jordan, but most of that stuff is like more or less evergreen. I guess you could say some of these bootstrapper shows are like what we're working on now this week, but it sounds like you're going after like a true news show for the industry, for at least the WordPress industry.

Can you talk a bit about that?

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. The WP minute. com. If I zoom out and I put my how to be a podcaster hat on what we like to see is we have a premise for a show, whatever that premise might be and. Like everything else in life, your [00:04:00] podcast muscle gets a little bit stronger the more you do it. Not everybody has to be perfect out of the gate.

God knows I wasn't and still am not. So, I like to preface all of my podcast advice with that. As long as you're on this pursuit of enjoying, number one. But, number two, you're on this pursuit to improve things. That's all you need to worry about. You don't have to be perfect. So you have this premise of your show.

The premise of the WP Minute is That I'm delivering the most impactful WordPress news to busy WordPress professionals, even that's kind of a weak premise, but that's the premise that I'm leading with. And then there's the format. So we have our premise and then we have the format and the format of the WP minute is like, as in the name, it's a five minute podcast for again, the busy professional.

So if you don't have time, nor do you want to listen to long drawn out. WordPress podcasts, like even like my other podcast, the Matt report, then this sort of solves for that customer, right? Let's say it solves for that audience quick five minutes.

Brian Casel: Yeah. I mean, five minutes is super short. So are you [00:05:00] doing like daily episodes or what does that look like?

Matt Medeiros: No. So if acquisitions were as hot as they were towards the tail end of 2021 in WordPress, you could potentially get by with a daily podcast. WordPress news doesn't fire off like that. So it's every Wednesday. And so it's five minutes every Wednesday. It does a few things for me. It's allows me to be a little bit more creative because it's easy to record an interview show for an hour and upload it.

It's much harder to make edit decisions and edit the show down to something valuable in a condensed format.

Brian Casel: That was going to be my next question is like, how is it even possible to get only five minutes? I think people don't quite realize, like, it's a lot harder to go shorter with podcasts that it's a lot easier and lazier to go longer with podcasts.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah, there's a lot of content in the WordPress space. There's a lot of WordPress podcasts, which is quite funny. There are a lot of WordPress podcasts. There's a lot of choices out there. We're all talking the same thing, but maybe at a different angle. [00:06:00] A lot of us just talking about everything. And the WP minute really makes me focus in on just the most impactful headlines.

So it won't be like, Hey, WordPress launched a new, I mean, well, a new version would be news, but like this, not this little point release feature, or we're not talking about security bugs or, Hey, maybe a Elementor came out with a new feature. Like, we're not going to be covering that stuff. We're only going to be covering the most impactful news items that we feel are the most impactful news items.

And the WP Min is also an experiment to a first for me, which I've been trying for many years is community journalism.

Brian Casel: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah, so what I've done is I open up the opportunity for folks to contribute a one minute clip to that weekly episode. Yeah, so sometimes it might be a seven minute podcast if I have two people contributing two clips, but these are two really unique segments from people from within the community.

So yeah, it could vary anywhere between three to seven minutes of a podcast [00:07:00] depending on what the news is. And that has allowed me to be a little bit more creative.

Brian Casel: So the people contributing, would that be like news creators themselves? So like, I'm from a company, we have something to announce, or is it like, Hey, I noticed that thing over there.

This should be covered. Let me talk about it.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. So the other part of my brain as a podcaster and as sort of a business person is monetization of a podcast like this. And there's a few ways that I've monetized this podcast. It's your standard sponsorship. That I sell standard sponsorship spots, and then I have a membership that you can buy for 79 for the year.

It gets you access to this discord server. You become a producer and producers have the opportunity to contribute this one minute clip or a news item that I talk about on the show within the discord server. So it kind of gets them invested in the news and oh, by the way, if they're a freelancer or an agency or a product owner, it's a great way to get some eyeballs.

On their brand and get them some brand awareness as well. And then I have some contributors that I do invite into the group. [00:08:00] Hey, you've come to me and you've expressed. Hey Matt, like we have Michelle Schulpp And she contributes a monthly one minute clip on health and wellness, and she's a WordPress freelancer and she has her own thing.

So this is a cool, like really unique segment. It's fun. It's like this one minute boost of health and wellness, and that's really cool. And she contributes that and she gets some eyeballs on her Twitter avatar every time it's announced. And it's been a fun experiment from that point of view. So some folks are paid members and they get access.

And then others are contributors that have some skin in the game with contributing content.

Brian Casel: Super cool. So who is that podcast for? Is it, so you said it's for WordPress professionals. So people who are. Consultants, freelancers, agencies, plug in shops. They need to know like what's happening in the WordPress space, maybe need to know what's happening before everyone else knows this thing sort of gives them like cutting edge information really quick.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. The biggest challenge with WordPress news, you can almost equate it to your local news, where [00:09:00] the local news is actually much more important. Then your national and your global news. It's actually much more important to see like, what the heck is happening. So it's where you live. Yeah. Yeah. It's where you live.

It's where you can make the most impact and it's what you should be hearing about. The problem is, is a lot of people just don't care about it. So your average WordPress user, she's running a bakery and she's, or a law firm and she's got a WordPress site and she doesn't know like what's the big things happening with this piece of software.

That's oh, so crucial to my business. Or to my brand, I would love, and that's where I'm trending to, where I want to trend to, is how do I reach the common WordPress user that's actually going to care about this stuff? Which is why I've really condensed it down to the five minutes, because ain't no way anyone who doesn't care about this stuff will ever listen to a 45 minute podcast talking about the latest CSS release from, again, from Elementor or Gutenberg or something like that.

So right now, it's the professionals. [00:10:00] It's the folks that are in the crowd, people who are listening to the Matt report and other notable WordPress podcasts, but I'd love to hit the bigger audience.

Brian Casel: So how much of a balance is it between drawing on stories and contributions from the members versus just you finding a story and talking about it for a few minutes?

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. So it's a good question. I've built this in a way that this is like a side, side, side of project for me. Again, another reason why I've condensed the format down to something really short. This actually started a gentleman in the WordPress space. He puts out a newsletter called the WP Weekly Devinder Singh Kainth.

And at one point in my career, I was like, Hey man, how about I turn your newsletter into a podcast and I just read your newsletter and like, let me just experiment with that. And he was like, Hey, that's fine, but I think you should do your own thing because I think you'll do it even better. And I was like, look, man, I don't want another project.

So, and he's like, he convinced me. He's like, look, this is how you should do it. That it's really quick. You can use my newsletter, but [00:11:00] still brand it fully yours. I'm like, okay, I'll try it. And that's sort of snowballed into this. But to answer your question, I have my executive producer and she writes the script for me every week.

And we do subscribe to all of the newsletters, but I have this little thing called the link squad. So if you're in my discord group, you can go into one of the channels. It's just a channel that we just put links in and you say, Hey, I saw this on WP tavern. This is a great new feature for Gutenberg, hashtag link squad.

And then I capture all of those links in a notion database. And then my executive producer and I, every Tuesday into Wednesday, we'll just scan through all of the links that people have submitted and either select or remove the ones that we think. Are just not newsworthy for this week. So it sort of has like this little, I don't want to say it runs on autopilot because it certainly doesn't, but we have this nice little contribution wheel of people who bring us links.

And then, uh, submit their content. And then we just pull up like the big stories that we see throughout the week.

Brian Casel: That's super cool to [00:12:00] hear you describe that. Cause this is really something that's been on my mind for well over a year is even with this podcast, it's turning into just a conversations show.

But I've had this idea for a long time or a mix of ideas for show one is sort of just a news show like that, but for like bootstrapped software, not WordPress, because I still don't think that there's good coverage of. What's actually happening right now. Like there's a few bootstrapper podcasts, right.

Who talked about what they do week to week. That's what a small handful there's hundreds or thousands of these really interesting startups shipping, interesting work or hiring, interesting people trying to do interesting things or acquisitions or sales and things like that. And everyone's so busy working on their stuff.

They're not actually sharing what they're working on. And so I've wanted forever, like the idea of doing like a news. Show the hold back. The reason why I haven't done it is because every time I think about it, I just think about how much work it would be to gather all of those stories without it. Just being stories about my small group of friends and [00:13:00] what they're working on.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. And that's the formula that you really have to hit and is quite challenging still, even with in the WordPress space, anything community driven is just that it's community driven. You think about anything that you do for either your community or that you donate your time to. And you know, the ebbs and flows of sometimes you're like, ah, I just don't have time to contribute to this area anymore, where you kind of fall off.

And I certainly saw that like ramping up, ramping the project up from, well, the community side of it didn't start until September of last year, 2021. And then all the way up into the holiday, it was just everything was up into the right, like people were excited, people were buying the memberships on buy me a coffee and everything was moving and then holidays hit.

And then forget about it. Like, so like, there's no big news happening either, but then there's people that are just like drop off from contribution because you have the holidays and then I suspect, and January was a pretty dry month, but February is starting to kick back up again with more community contributions, I suspect because January, it's just like, [00:14:00] I've set all my new year's resolutions and that is the focus on me and my business.

So I'm not going to contribute in this little community thing. So I've definitely noticed some particular challenges in that area.

Brian Casel: But I just like the combination of like, you've got this like feed of links and the discord community where it's like, you can always go to that feed for sort of like raw material.

Right. But you do have that like editorial control over like, all right, what's actually interesting, newsworthy, and what's just sort of promotional and not that interesting. Right.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. Another interesting experiment that I've done with this, because at some point, all I'm doing is reporting on the news.

There is original stories that are happening. So if you go to the wpminute. com, actually a brand new website that launched today that nobody, I haven't even announced it yet. Just did a soft launch last night. You heard it here first, folks. Brand new redesign. There's WP minute. And that's been an interesting thing is getting folks who want to be WordPress journalists or a journalist covering a [00:15:00] particular topic because WordPress is pretty big when it comes to freedom of speech, Google search engine optimization.

There's a lot of stuff that WordPress touches. That's kind of interesting in the tech space and then getting people to contribute there. Has been an interesting ride. I've done this thing called what I call a content bounty and a content bounty. I don't know if this exists. It could exist in another world.

I just came up with it. But what I do is I say, Hey, if you want to write a piece or a series of blogs or podcasts, come to me with whatever number that is in your head. Like, what does it cost? What would you want to be paid to contribute a blog post? And I've done this successfully now three times. Most people come to me, they're like, yeah, you know, for a couple hundred bucks, I'll write a blog post about X, Y, Z topic.

So I say, okay, great. A couple hundred bucks, you write this piece. And then what I do is I turn to my audience and I say, I've got this person who wants to write this story. Will you sponsor this story for 300? And then I just put it out into Twitter. I have a WooCommerce product. Somebody comes in, they buy it and they sponsor the writer to write it.

Oh, [00:16:00] and they get their sponsorship on it. They get their sponsorship on it. The writer gets 200. The WP minute keeps a hundred dollars to invest back into the business as the profit. And I've executed on that successfully three

Brian Casel: times. Wow. That's super smart. I like that.

Matt Medeiros: Pretty big snowball to push up a hill.

Brian Casel: Yeah, it's like a two sided marketplace, but I could totally see the incentive for both the writer and like a company to sponsor it.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah, because what does everybody say about the news? And I'll talk about it specifically in the WordPress space is who funds the news, right? So you have like the Washington Post is owned by Jeff Bezos, right?

And then to equate that to maybe the WordPress world, the newspaper of record for WordPress, if you could say that is WP Tavern, which is owned by Audrey Capital, who is Matt Mullenweg's investment company. So the same thing, it's like Washington Post and Jeff Bezos. And then if I were to have the WP minute fully funded by, let's say GoDaddy, then one would say, Oh, well, you're only [00:17:00] going to say good things about GoDaddy.

You're never going to say bad things about GoDaddy.

Brian Casel: Yeah. This is an independent press here in the WordPress space.

Matt Medeiros: I like it. Right. So if I could fund it like this. Which is extremely challenging and silly, but it's an experiment that I am trying.

Brian Casel: Well, it sounds like you've got a good mix of like, you've got these like, sponsorship bounty posts.

You've got the memberships through the discord. When you started describing it at first, where I thought you were going with it was like a crowdfunded model, right? So if somebody has a pitch for an article or a series of articles, Do you ever get like multiple bidders or have like five or 10 or 20 people listed as sponsors on it?

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. You know what? I haven't approached it at that angle yet only because technology and time. So I just figured like the easiest thing is just WooCommerce link, sell it. That's how I sell all my other sponsorships. I have some other ideas. Crowdsource initiative. There's two other ideas that I have coming for like funding and raising some money for it.

But no, I have not done it for multiple [00:18:00] sponsors per post, but there's nothing really stopping me from doing that.

Brian Casel: Yeah. Like I said, the idea of like a news show for just software companies has been on my mind for a while. The other thing that I thought I was going to execute on last year and never quite did it again, same kind of challenges. Like I thought I was going to call this show, uh, shipped. And it would be all about things that people are shipping.

And like, the idea would be to just like, go knock on every company's door and be like, what are you working on right now? What story can we tell on the podcast about that? And just, you see this like working in public trend now, or build in public thing on Twitter and everything. And it's like. There are so many people and companies who don't do that, like, they're working on really amazing things, but they're not sharing publicly what they're doing and at least not like the behind the scenes story of how it came together.

And I just think that there are so many useful, interesting stories to people like us who are building things. We get inspiration from what people are building. But it's like, how do you piece together the operation? Well, [00:19:00] actually do it actually find those stories. And then like, you're talking about like funding it and making it like a sustainable thing.

Matt Medeiros: Super hard. Yeah. I was just looking at the numbers the other day and if I count, so my sponsorship is kind of mixed. Cause it also sponsors sort of the Matt report too, but I kind of broke it out. As a brand new podcast, I launched the podcast portion of it in April, 2021, and then didn't open up the membership and the content bounty stuff until September, roughly the podcast has made about 10, 000 in revenue.

Which does not fund a full time writer. I mean, it doesn't fund a business, let alone a full time writer, but on the unit level, right?

Brian Casel: Like on a single article that gets funded by the bounty. Like, it's not like that's money out of your pocket, right?

Matt Medeiros: That's correct. So it is a way to sort of offset that. And then the answer is just to scale it.

And then if you were WordPress space because that's the challenge, right? Is there, there's [00:20:00] the audience isn't there. And maybe this springboards into something that is more of like true independent news. In a particular region or a particular city and the model can be applied there. But because the news is much more sought after than the opportunity to grow the clicks and the views and the value is a little bit easier.

Brian Casel: Yeah, it is interesting. Like WordPress still seems so massive in terms of a market and the number of people and of course, number of websites, but. I guess there is the question of, like, how much of that ocean of WordPress is actually interested in tuning into, like, the real insider track of what's happening in WordPress.

I would think it's still a huge audience.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. Well, I would say in a global, like, I have a particular number in mind that in the entire world, the amount of people who actually care about the inside baseball of WordPress. Is probably around 5, 000 people who actually care about what's happening with WordPress.

Now, how many people [00:21:00] use WordPress who would be like remotely curious of like where the software is going. Now we're talking about hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Who actually like use it and care like, well, maybe there's like something happening with WordPress that I might tune into, but I would say that the overall reach of people who care about like the inside baseball is very, very small, but also very, very valuable.

At the same time, because these are decision makers, whatever, influencers, et cetera. I

Brian Casel: think it might be on both ends though, like a higher end and like a more entry level end. Right. Because it's like, I could totally see how like the higher end, like some people who are in large companies, they're more concerned with recruiting and maybe acquisitions and competition and that's insider knowledge.

But if I remember back, like the period of time when I was most. Engaged and hungry for information about WordPress in my case, but also like startups in general was when I was brand new to the industry. So thinking back to like, probably around the time when you and I met, which must've [00:22:00] been around like 2010, 2009, I was relatively new to WordPress.

WordPress had been around for a few years before that. So I felt like I was playing catch up in terms of like, who are the big players, what's happening, what is what here. And that's when I was hungry for that sort of information.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. I think as the year marches on the other, I mean, I know one of the properties that I've given up on just cause I have zero time left is I have a WordPress plugin tutorial channel on YouTube, which still continues to grow organically.

I haven't uploaded a video since I started my full time job at Castos. Cause I just have zero time to even look at that, but just like. Your local newspaper who might launch a fashion week spread and you're like a fashion week spread. Why would you do that in this local newspaper is because it does bring in those extra eyeballs to hopefully stick around to read the news, right?

So it's just a common media trend as you start covering more things. And I know that with the WP minute, I could start doing the tutorial [00:23:00] stuff. And that is ultimately the gateway to your average, well, you're more than average user, but the biggest audience of WordPress content consumers are going to be the people who are teach me how to do this thing with this popular WordPress plugin.

Brian Casel: Yeah, because they're like Googling right now, like how to do this thing, right?

Matt Medeiros: Yeah, that is by far absolutely the best thing to do to grow a WordPress content site, which I know, and I'm just not doing it.

Brian Casel: I wonder about opinion versus just hard news. I feel like WordPress is like notorious for like opinions and battles of ideology, all this different stuff.

Right. But like, even when I think about how I consume like world news and national news and stuff, like. I read the New York Times, but I go straight for the opinion pages most of the time, because that is like the most interesting part of the news for me is to hear different people's actual views on what's happening.

I'm wondering if that's like an element here where it's like, we'll give you the news, but like, here's what 1 person thinks about it. Here's what somebody else thinks about it.

Matt Medeiros: So I do have two [00:24:00] contributors that are more consistent in that space. I call them our, my, our correspondents, right? So I have Dave Rodenbaugh.

He talks mainly about e commerce. He up to a 10 minute podcast, right? So I'm just trying to keep it within the creative sphere of the WP minute. So I say, Hey Dave, you can go up to 10 minutes in this audio monologue, talked to us about e commerce, talked about how WordPress impacts e commerce, et cetera, and then I have Spencer Foreman who also runs sort of an e commerce place, WP Launchify.

And he's our correspondent on the future of WordPress. So he brings in a lot of his opinions on how maybe like Gutenberg and full site editing are starting to shape WordPress. And I had a gentleman that used to be our community lead. Paul Lacey, he wrote like a 3000 word piece. It was sort of his exit piece to his retirement piece to WordPress on how Gutenberg changed the community and how he really didn't want to be a part of it anymore because he didn't feel like he was a part of it anymore.

And that one got probably about 3000 views that blog post. And that was one that was really impactful. [00:25:00] We got shared a lot and stuff like that. So the opinion pieces, a hundred percent. They definitely bring the eyeballs.

Brian Casel: Interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, you're obviously doing a lot of shows. What I love about what you're doing is like, you are experimenting with different formats, uh, content types.

You're not just going to the same tried and true formula that like a thousand other podcasts are doing. So that's huge kudos to you. I mean, obviously you've been doing podcast content and video content for a long time. So this is not new to you. I'm curious, like out of all the different shows. That you're doing between the WP minute and Matt report.

And even like going back through all the stuff that you've ever done. Like, I guess it's like this stuff that you're doing now, right? Like the most interesting or where you see the podcast or content industry trending going forward. Any, uh, any kind of like vision going forward here?

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. I mean, look, if you're just a general podcaster and you're like, how do I grow my brand and awareness?

Podcasting is awesome. And I know I'm super biased because I've been doing it for a decade and I work for castos. So I teach people about this stuff all the time, but it is [00:26:00] once you've invested in it and once you've given it enough time and enough thought and care and attention, it does become something that's very powerful and very hard for your competition to compete against.

If that's the way you're looking at it, people have to get better over time. Like the whole just record and upload, that's going to have to go away unless you're in a non competitive space, but this is just an attention economy. You need to do something different and better. It doesn't have to be like, you have to worry about it.

You just have to be on this pursuit to constantly get better. Cause if you just sit there and worry, you'll just never launch. And I've done that a million times. You just never want to tinker with it. You adjust things. And then it never works. You spend a million hours looking about trying to buy the best microphone.

It doesn't matter. It's about the content and it's about the content. And it's about how you promote it as those are the two most important things.

Brian Casel: Yeah. I was just going to say like, yes, you need good audio quality and that's easier than ever to get these days with today's microphones and everything.

But yeah, it's totally about the content and you're totally right. Like, it's not going to happen out of the gate and I'm still fumbling around on the mic, even [00:27:00] after podcasting for several years. But it's having this sense for like, what are we talking about? Like, what does the listener probably want to hear next?

What are the questions that they're asking? I remember listening to Andrew Warner on Mixergy for many years, but especially several years ago, just being amazed at how he has this knack for like. Literally the next question he's asking is the question that I had in my head.

Matt Medeiros: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It comes over time.

It's just incredible. Yeah. The best thing that if you're, how do I get better at podcasting? Check out the podcast, threeclipspodcast. com. That's a show that we acquired from the original creator. Jay Akunso, and he was the host for a little while and then moved on at the end of 2021. And we brought on a new host Evo Terra, and he's running that now with our producer, Stuart Barefoot.

And I'll tell you, I have never, you want to talk about imposter syndrome. And that constant mental tug of war, like I'm not the person that should be in this room. That's me as the executive [00:28:00] producer of that show. And I hear Evo read this out every episode. You know, Matt Medeiros Podcast. I'm like, what a big phone.

You're a phony. You're a phony. That's all I hear right in the background. Cause Evo is just, he was the 40th, four zero, uh, 40th podcast ever on Apple iTunes. So he's been doing it forever. And Stuart's just an amazing producer. And they're interviewing people from Vox, from all of these just high end podcast production places.

But anyway, the point is Three Clips Podcast, they interview hosts of great podcasts and they dissect three clips from that show. So if you ever thought about like what goes into sound design and storytelling, it's just an amazing show to learn that stuff. So you can get a feel for what really happens on high end shows.

Brian Casel: Very cool. Yeah, we're going to get all this stuff linked up in the show notes, Matt. It was awesome to talk to you on this segment, all about how you're experimenting with all these different formats and you've seen it all at this point. So really cool to get your insight. I'm excited to see how WP minute evolves and all of your other stuff.

I [00:29:00] think in the next segment, it might be really cool to unpack what you just talked about, like the executive producer role. What does that look like? And what does it look like to produce this stuff and be more efficient and focusing on qualities? We'll get into that in the next one. Yeah. Thanks, man.

Thank you.