The Science Behind a Creator Business with Jay Clouse
The Science Behind a Creator Business with Jay Clouse
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Brian: [00:00:00] You're about to hear my conversation with Jay Clouse, the man behind Creator Science, and we talk all things creator businesses. Let's get into it.
So I'm about to roll my conversation with Jay Clouse. It was a really good one. We recorded it on November 8th, 2023, and we did a deep dive into what it means to start and grow and professionalize a creator business. Jay runs creator science. It's a fantastic blog and newsletter and YouTube channel and podcast and Twitter and all, all the things.
Jay is the man when it comes to creator businesses and really taking it to the next professional level. I know I learned a lot just from talking to him here, but of course, from following his other content as well. You're really going to enjoy this episode. Here it is my conversation with Jay.
Enjoy. [00:01:00] JaY Clouse, to connect with you finally. Live in person. Well not live for those who listen are listening to this, but
Jay : Yeah. Life rest though. that's what matters.
Brian: That's right, that's right. Hey, so this is like perfect timing for me to have you on the show here and to meet you and have this discussion because as I was just telling you before we started recording, I have been going down the Jay Clouse content rabbit hole for the last month or so. And I'm just really, you know, what I, what I really find awesome about what you do is there is so much content out there about the creator economy and, and growing an audience, and this, this whole topic area, this space and like online education and community, these areas are not new. Like they, they've been around forever and there are so many people out there, you know, just. There's a lot, there's just a lot of noise as, as I'm sure you know,
but your stuff really struck me as like a, [00:02:00] a, a really, like a, a bar above in terms of like, content and depth and literally the science behind what it takes to be a creator, which is why you have like a, the perfect brand name for that.
I want to get into that. So I just wanna commend you on like, it's, it, like for me
as someone, as someone who's like, I don't consider myself a, an expert with a huge audience or anything, but I'm not new to this game. I've
been doing, I've been on the internet and, and doing have some level of audience for years and I still find a ton of like really useful, insightful value today, you know, from your stuff.
So, really awesome.
Jay : I agree with you. I mean, what's old is new again, like . I mean, pat Flynn was doing this in 2008. I started tuning into this stuff like 20 15, 20 16 through Brian Harris and this guy Matt, Kimberly, and kind of got into the, the course world and realized like that's really what got me into the creator space was I had a background in product and [00:03:00] startups which I loved, but I was always so frustrated because everything that I wanted to create, I had to force my vision through the
The process that is software development because I'm not a, I'm not a developer, I'm not a designer, so it's a lot of collaboration, which is great, but at the end of the day, the end product never felt like mine, and it was never exactly what I was hoping to achieve because I had to go through compromises and other people.
And what I realized that content is a product and I am fully capable of producing that. It just blew my mind open and it was like all I wanted to do.
Content as a product
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Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And actually just that, that concept of content as a product, that's something that started to click for me recently as I'm, I'm starting to really do a lot more research into what it takes to do this full time as a creator. It's, and it's something that I'm looking to get a lot more into in 2024. I'm doing a lot of research into YouTube specifically right now. Maybe [00:04:00] we could talk a bit about that, but treating every piece of content as its own kind of
mini product, you know?
So I mean, yeah, like, why don't we get into that a little bit? 'cause Yeah. You know, you, you have a, a, a podcast and a YouTube channel and you've been pretty well known on Twitter and your email newsletter. How do you think about content? Strategy, content, topics and, and really like making sure that every piece is, is valuable. 'cause like the, again, like the more that I'm thinking a lot, a lot about this, it's not just about, I feel like there's a lot of focus on consistency and distribution of content and different formats of content, but like none of that is important if you don't have the right topic. If that's actually going to speak to somebody's
need and solve a problem, like how do you think about all that?
Jay : I'm more and more convinced that everything comes back to, do you have a clear premise as a [00:05:00] creator, like the business as a whole, what you're trying to do? Is there a premise there that is clear and speaks to a specific person and is growable because we, we see a lot of people that just get into creating kind of, for creating sake, and it's
It's interesting. Some of it might be interesting to some people, but it's also all over the place. And you know, a lot of my career as a creator has felt like riding a bicycle in first gear on flat land. It's like I'm moving, I'm moving forward, but I'm peddling like hell. And I really feel like there's gotta be a more efficient way to do this.
And I started looking around and realizing the people that grow quickly, they have built this association between themselves and . , this specific idea and this is kind of what I would call your premise. So people have thrown around the word like niche is kind of the popular term, and that's, that's approximate to what I'm saying.
But you know, when you think of me, [00:06:00] I hope you think of creators and with like a little bit of a bent towards analysis, like, some rigor in how you become a creator. You think of Justin Welsh, you think of solopreneurs. yoU think of Cody Sanchez and you think of boring businesses, so like when you have that tight association between yourself and an idea.
Now, anytime that idea is a topic of conversation, somebody in that conversation has the opportunity to say, have you listened to the Creator Science podcaster? Have you heard of Justin Welsh? She's taking Justin Welsh's course on this or that. That's how things spread, because otherwise it's gonna be completely dependent on you as a creator to com.
Like push your ideas out to the market and you're only reaching people if you are pushing. And that's what's happening with so many creators who are struggling, is they aren't building an association with an idea. So their growth is fully dependent on their ability to reach people directly. Like
it's not spreading itself.
So the more you hone in on something that is an idea or a topic where you have. [00:07:00] Proprietary ideas, language that helps you build an association the better off you are. You know, at the ultimate level you have people like Brene Brown who are associated with vulnerability or James Clear with habits. It's really hard to go outta the gate and be like, I'm gonna be the habits guy.
That's a, that's an ambitious thing to say, I'm going to be the guy associated with this one word that is large and kind of universal. You get there eventually when you have a piece of work that is proprietary and. gets you there, like atomic habits is really what made James associate with that, even though he was writing
Brian: like a lot of that,
Jay : it for a long time.
Brian: I feel like a lot of it is about association, like literally with a word, right? Like, and
I know it's not that simple. There has to be a lot more meaning
and substance To that, but I. Like, it's true, like with, with you, like I, I think of you as like the, the creator guy or the creator business guy.
And you know, a couple years back I was talking a lot about productized services. I had a whole course around that and like [00:08:00] people started to kind of associate me and my content with productized services specifically. You know,
Jay : Yep. People,
Brian: kind of
abandoned all that, but
Jay : we, we have such small compartments in our mind to associate with people that are not ourselves. Like most of our waking time is spent thinking about ourselves, but. We interact with the world and we start to create tiny little associations between people. And one idea like we are unable to associate one person with two ideas.
There's not enough space. We don't care enough. So if we are gonna be aware that you exist, we want to categorize you in some way. And if you are able to influence what that categorization is in people's minds to be something that is aligned with the content that you're creating. You start to build momentum because now it's not all on you to spread this thing.
Your alignment with that premise perpetuates itself through other people.
Brian: Yep. Yeah, and I think that, you know, even You know, the, the whole idea of like [00:09:00] competition or,
Imposter syndrome or you know, if, if, if Jay is covering like the creator space, then nobody else can cover the creative creator space. What, I mean, what I've found is like I, I learn from, I, I learn in every area from multiple people, multiple sources, and each person has their own flavor or, you know, secondary association.
Right? Yeah. Well, I, I, I mean, I kinda wanna like step back and again, like your whole brand is creator science and you do break it down. You, you break down literally the mechanics of what it takes to be like, kind of like a professional full-time creator. This, I feel like a lot of what you focus on is like, not like kind of hobby stuff or doing it just for fun, but like, if you're literally building a, a business and a career around this, I mean, there are so many different topics that we can kind of dive into. One, one, like open question that I have for you is the personal brand versus [00:10:00] like the creator brand. You know, I know that
Jay : Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
Seperating personal and creator brands
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Brian: your brand and coming up with your brand is, is something that you've talked a lot about and, and you've gone through a few rebrands yourself before this show.
I was, I was kind of looking at your stuff like you have JayClouse.com and you have creator science.com. Can you speak a little bit about like, the separation between the personal and like a, a creator brand and maybe the importance of each one.
Jay : Yeah, I, I think there are multiple viable paths here. But a lot of people getting into the creator game, they're like, should I build behind my name? Should I build behind a project name? And I think there's a lot of power to having a project name as the brand. But I don't think it's worth rushing it and making it something that you don't have a lot of conviction in.
Like, my business fundamentally changed when . I named it Creator Science. I was still doing very similar things before the name Creator Science existed, and it's, it's less than two [00:11:00] years old. That name has existed, but the name was so aligned with who I was trying to reach and the style of writing, style of content creating that I do that once, that alignment and that name existed, it started to perpetuate itself in a really positive way.
But I had a project name before that it was Creative Companion. It didn't . Inspire curiosity or really any emotion in people when they heard it, so it didn't perpetuate itself. So even though that project name existed, it wasn't helping me, I would've been just as well served not having that and building behind my name.
So there's opportunity to have a good brand name. And when you do, not only does it help perpetuate, but it also has some long-term optionality that it unlocks too. Because there's a world where I go full media company, I hire other writers. I build a Creator Science podcast network, maybe even have multiple YouTube channels underneath it.
And Creator Science is now this large, overarching brand that has enterprise value that could eventually [00:12:00] be sold someday. That's not completely dependent on my name, my work,
Brian: Yep.
Jay : When you're
building
behind Jay Clouse, like there's
not really an exit strategy there. I actually just recently interviewed Amy Porterfield.
It hasn't aired yet, and I talked to her about this. I'm like. What's your relationship ship to this? What are you trying to do? And she said one of the biggest projects that they've ever taken on and are taking on actively right now is building her business into a thing that is not dependent on her, the individual and her name.
It's a hard thing.
Brian: Yep.
Jay : So I think, you know, long answer, , long story short, I think the optimal thing to do is build behind your name for a while until you really feel like you know who you are and what you're trying to do. You understand your premise. And then spend a good amount of time building a brand that speaks to that premise that then you can kind of split off because you will always exist.
You're probably always gonna wanna have a personal website that talks about you, what you've done in the past. Your story links off to your different [00:13:00] projects. You know, as Creator Science Grows and I talk about my story, there's so many elements of my career that now I just leave outta the story entirely.
And as it relates to Creator science. 'cause it doesn't make sense, it doesn't help people understand it more, it doesn't help people get interested, but it's still a core part of my story. I care about it. I can talk about that on my personal website. I can give my whole story because it's basically, you know, my, my bio is, is the in website form.
Brian: It's interesting, I'm, I'm glad you got into like, building the brand with the, at least the potential option of being able to sell it as an, as asset or like a sellable asset. Right. I, I, I,
sort of went through that with, I. Productize. I mean, I did sell the productize brand off in 2021. And for the years that I had it, like, I think I started it back in 2014. And then over that period of time, like five or six years, I, I began to like feel a little bit torn. Like, is this me [00:14:00] or is this a, a product brand? And then I went through the long, like year multi-year process of like splitting out, like, alright, this article. Serving a purpose for someone who's interested in productized services.
But, but that blog post is more of like my personal update. So then it's like,
that goes on a personal site versus that
Jay : Mm-Hmm.
Brian: This and then finally when it came time to actually like, build it as like a, as an entity. You know, the way that I think about it is like, is like that, like each piece of content, whether it's free or a paid course or something, if it's Intended to be some form of a product, and I sort of, now I include free articles or free podcasts as products that like
solve problems, you know, that belongs on the, on the brand like product website. But if it's like personal story backstory, what I'm working on now, my projects, maybe my turn of the year blog post, like that's a little bit more in the, in the personal [00:15:00] realm. And I think it, I think it's still important to have a lot of yourself in both, you know,
Jay : Yeah.
Brian: I, creator, creator Science of course is like a, it's like a product entity, but it's still very much Jay like, you know, running the show there, you know?
Jay : it's, it's still pretty sy synonymous with me. But if you ask somebody who, like the typical reader of Morning Brew, you know, who is behind Morning Brew, they might not even know. You know, it's, it's really how you design the experience with the product. Is it dependent on the person, the personality or not?
And to this point, they're still very much linked.
but having that project name is the first step in detaching and allowing it to go beyond yourself. It's, it's, I think it's also an a conversation that comes up in hiring. I think it's more difficult as a creator to hire really talented people and have them operate behind your name long term.
Then [00:16:00] operate behind a kind of a third party entity name because. , you know, whether they have literal ownership or not, they'll probably feel more ownership over this third party project, you know, than they will your name. So there, there's a lot of reasons why it makes sense. I think it's easier to refer sometimes too.
You know, I think fandom is a little bit weird. So if you're like, Hey, do you
read Jay Clouse's newsletter?
Some people might feel some sort of way about that, rather than saying like, do you read Creator Science? It's a little, it's a little bit easier refer I think sometimes.
Creator Science breakdown
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Brian: Interesting. So I want to like talk a bit about just your, your business, like running Creator Science as a business and, and kind of the mechanics of that and what it looks like for you. You know, 'cause like, again, like I've been sort of shifting between all different types of businesses in my career and lately, the last few years I've been focused on, on a SaaS product. And now as I look ahead into 2024 I'm looking a lot at Kind of getting back [00:17:00] into the audience game and the creator game, which I was years ago. I sort of let that sit dormant for a while, while, while I went into the SaaS area, and now I'm kind of going back down that rabbit hole. And so I'm do, I've been doing a lot of like research and poking around into like, what, what does this actually look like with a hundred percent effort and not like
just for fun effort, but like taking
this super seriously as a business. Which obviously is, is what you do with Creator Science. So I want to get a sense for like, what does this actually look like? I, I guess, as a place to start can you give us like a breakdown of, know, like your different product or products, product lines and your different areas of focus? Like what, how do, how do you see like the big pieces that make up your business?
Jay : I look at my revenue as six buckets. aNd in order of percentages, the memberships is about [00:18:00] 70% of my business, and that's the lab, my membership community sponsorship, which is split between podcasts, newsletter, YouTube. That's about 15% of the business, I think. And then affiliates. Digital products, royalties, those are each, I'm not gonna get the total percentage exactly right.
I think they're around 3% each. And then I'm missing something. I think it's services. So the majority of my business at this point is membership revenue, which I think kind of cannibalize digital product sales a little bit. thAt would be a
Brian: to hear, like, I knew that it's a big focus for you, the the membership, but I didn't realize it was that large of the pie.
Jay : The thing is, it's, it's, it's a higher priced thing. So even though the relative number of purchases isn't that high, like there are 200 members in the lab at any given time, the, the price point is $2,000 at a base level. So it just, it, it becomes an outsized part of, of the revenue.[00:19:00] My, my goal for this year was to start to flip the business so that more revenue was coming from digital products.
But I'm I was telling you before we started recorded, I'm, I'm making a little bit of a pivot away from that as well because I started mapping out like, what is the ideal product suite for creator science. I mapped out like the customer journey and all the pain points along that journey that I could serve.
And if I were to do it like as well as I wanted and I was doing it from a digital product standpoint, I would be sitting here with like a dozen digital products. And I don't think that's really the type of business I want to create
Brian: You mean because like each, each one would like solve a specific problem.
Jay : Yeah.
Yeah.
Brian: if you will.
Jay : I basically, I think of, I think of the business as kind of a kind of an assembly line where anyone who wants to be a professional creator, I should be able to help them or do for them a diagnosis of, here's where you are in the process and I'm gonna take you by [00:20:00] the hand and give you exactly what you need to get to this point, this outcome.
You start at a different place, but we're all going to the same outcome and to hit all the points on that journey that I felt like people might need help. If I did them as a digital product, it would be a lot of products, which becomes challenging to market. I. . And so what I'm more interested in doing now is keeping the lab as is, but creating a lower priced membership that is more content oriented.
I say the lab is more connection oriented. It's more about connecting with the people and sharing between them, but a content based membership where I'm just constantly adding to the library of helping people do specific things along the journey of becoming a professional creator. So. Basically everything in that community or in that membership would get you to the point of, I'm making good money now as a professional creator, and now the lab makes more sense because there's not really a playbook at a certain point.
At a certain point, it's teaching you how to experiment [00:21:00] and innovate and figure things out for yourself.
Brian: You know that I, I definitely resonate with what you're describing there because I mean, like the, the lab is interesting to me. I, I, I might join it at some point soon, and the reason like, maybe some customer research for you here is like the, the reason why that looks valuable to me is joining a community and the, the small nature of it and the, and the nature of the, the members are advanced. I, I know that, you know, several years ago, I, I go out to to MicroComp basically every year for the last eight or eight to 10 years. That's mostly a community of SaaS founders and I've developed some incredible relationships and learning and, and, mastermind groups and really great friendships through that community. It's really, really helped my career in the software world and products in general, and SaaS startups. And I, I look at the lab as like a potential like community in the, in the [00:22:00] creator realm, if I'm gonna be taking that
seriously in the next several years here. Like, that seems like a, like a high level kind of thing. And, and also as I think about my own sort of like structuring what, what this, what a business could look like next year or the year after, like I, I, my, my first thought was the more traditional approach, like, okay, grow, grow an audience and maybe sell some courses of some kind. But the more that I think about it, and this is all super like in Fluxx here, but like the more that I think about it is the content itself can basically serve as the educational stuff.
Like, and that can be
mostly free stuff on YouTube, maybe some through email and, and content and things like that. But the, the paid stuff, the valuable stuff is really a membership or a community. And like, it, it's like grow the audience, the distribution, the exposure through being helpful and teaching bite-sized lessons in the form [00:23:00] of YouTube videos or maybe like mini courses and things like that. But the, the value, the long-term like Business value, but like customer value is in some sort of like community membership maybe even like extending into conferences and, you know, things
like that.
Jay : there's definitely, it's definitely a path. Like I think it's, I think it's viable for anybody. I think that memberships as a product are, I think it's the most difficult product to sustain.
Brian: That's also what I want to ask you about too is like the, the, your energy level that goes into. Doing this
Jay : It is a lot.
It's a lot. And it's, it's indicative of the health of the membership.
Like I had covid a couple weeks ago, I was a little bit less involved in the lab. There's a la that's like, there's a lagging experience. It's not exactly the week of, but it's typically like a couple weeks behind. If I am [00:24:00] not as involved, then I see that reflected in
The activity in the community. So it really depends on how you design the membership. One of the potential fatal flaws of the lab is the premise itself. I promised a lot of my own involvement and I designed a lot of the experience around my involvement with live events and the monthly retro shows. I record the, the material that I create in there.
So if I am less involved, then it feels less valuable. If I created a new membership, I would design the expectations and the experience differently, so it's a little bit more resilient. But the problem with any membership that is more connection based than content based is you can't control the connections.
Like, all you can do is create the environment and try and create the, the culture. But it's. It's a little bit like the pool that I have at this [00:25:00] house now. We bought a new house and we have a pool, and I quickly realized that I don't understand pool chemistry. And if something gets off, like you suddenly have problems that can be difficult to reverse.
Reversible takes time, expensive, gotta diagnose what's wrong with it, gotta have the right solution to it. And creating an environment of a membership that's connection based is a lot like that. Like there . It's, it's just fickle. It's never done. It's not like SaaS. It's not a utility where you, you set it, it's solving a problem for me.
It requires input from the member. That has to be a gratifying experience and you have to create the right conditions, but you ultimately can't control everything.
Brian: Yeah. So what does this actually look like for you, like on like, maybe like a typical week in, in the life of running your business? And, I mean, because the, it's not just as you were just talking about, like it, like you A big part of the success of your community is, is you being actively involved and engaging with your members and your, [00:26:00] and your customers.
Right? But the, to me, the other big half, maybe even more than half of your business is public facing content, like your
podcast,
Jay : Oh
Creative energy and prioritization
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Brian: your YouTube channel, writing, you know, newsletters and things like that. So that, that, that whole engine, that whole treadmill, if you will, is. Seems like a ton of commitment and time, especially when, and look like You know, this podcast is super easy for me 'cause I barely even prepare for it. I just invite friends on and, and we just talk. But your, your stuff is clearly really well produced, and not just from like an editing and music standpoint, but like the content seems really well researched and planned methodically, so there must be a ton of effort that goes into that. I'm just curious, like how do all these pieces come together and where are you spending most of your like creative energy? Throughout a week.
Jay : to be honest with you, I, [00:27:00] I don't have like much of a hierarchy. When co, when Covid hit. , I eliminated anything. Like I was pretty involved in local community here in Columbus, Ohio for a while. When Covid hit, I didn't leave the house for like nine months. We took it very seriously in the shold, and suddenly my, my wife was also worried that she might lose her job, so I was filling every hour on my calendar with stuff.
Could be client work, could be creative work. . , and I'm still kind of in that paradigm. It, it's been hard to undo. So there's very little downtime that I have during the work week. I'm looking at my calendar this week and it's like, wow, I can't believe I did this to myself. Well, the one thing I have been able to do pretty well is using Sappy Cal, which I think you're a fan of.
I, I do not schedule anything on Mondays or Fridays. . So Monday and Friday is basically when creative [00:28:00] work happens, creative work on the business work. I Even do a lot of my, like responding to people during that time because Tuesdays and Thursdays and some Wednesdays are so structured with conversations that anytime, that's not like a, a live, me showing up and talking to somebody or performing in some way or interviewing.
I just feel like I need . A break mentally. I can't even like think through things and respond to things, but there's no one task that takes up a, a disproportionate amount of space. There's just so many little things.
Brian: The,
the one that like, I think draws it's, it's weird how, like, I, I've become really aware of, of how, how I manage my energy. I. And the different types of energy that I need to be effective in different areas.
You know, like when I'm working on the software product, I need like, full days of just quiet, deep work, you know, [00:29:00] really concentrated, really complex technical design and architectural problems that I'm, that I love solving that stuff. But then like other days I'm doing stuff like this, like a podcast, which I tend to find it like kind of fun, but it's definitely energy draining. Like after this call,
I'm not gonna get a whole lot of important work done. I'm, I'm gonna be pretty
Jay : Yep.
Content ideation, production and output
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Brian: you know? , bUt then there's this, this third area, which is not a big part of my life right now, but I think it's gonna be, become a big deal for me next year. And that's like content creation. Especially. the pre-production of content, right? So coming up with a topic idea that really resonates with my audience, doing the necessary research. What, how can I put the most creative energy to, into this one piece of content to make it really stick or really stand out among the noise and then the actual [00:30:00] production of it, the, the recording or the writing of it. And then like know, maybe bring in help to, whether it's like editing or publishing, but like a lot of that initial creative energy that seems like multiple days of work per week. I'm curious how you think about all that, or like what does your kind of process look like for that?
Jay : my process. I would say content creation. The actual production probably feels to me a lot like software development. Time feels to you where it's like deep work put things to the side. Pre-production as you're describing it, like ideating, researching, thinking. I find that that just happens in the natural course of life.
I don't have time on the calendar. Put aside for that. It usually happens on the walks I go for in the morning or if I'm working out or if I'm in the shower or if I'm doing dishes. You know, it's, it's happening when my body is busy, but my mind is relatively free. That's when a lot of the pre-production thinking happens.
Research is different because research has to be kind of active, [00:31:00] but a lot of my research is done in the form of audio because a lot of my research is listening to interviews listening to audio books. So my, my creative production time is a lot like your software time where it's, it's Monday and Friday.
I can't have anything else on the calendar. All I'm doing is dreading that block before it happens. Then afterwards, I'm kinda like, whew, thank God that's over. I literally have to have like a clear calendar on the day where I'm trying to just be creative.
Side hustle to full time creator
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Brian: As we start to like wrap up this, this episode about like creator, like creator style businesses, I, I'd have to imagine that like, even though your stuff and your audience, to me it seems like a bit more advanced, you know, especially in terms of like the level of substance. But I, but I would also imagine that like the people who are really like Either discovering you for the first time or starting to go down the rabbit hole like, like I am right now with, with your stuff. It's people who are looking to make a transition or they're [00:32:00] in this transition into, into getting serious about being a creator. Right. Um, so I wonder if you could speak a bit about like, what does it take to go from I guess like hobbyist creator or like someone who writes the occasional blog post or maybe does a, a podcast on the side, but it's sort of just a, just a side hustle for them. To someone who's making a full-time living at this, like what, what kind of separates that, that full-time, the full-timer from the, from the hobbyist, if you will, what does that look like
Jay : I think it's,
Brian: characteristics, you know.
Jay : I think it's a lot of patience and I think it's . Like an endless capacity for tiny, tiny iterations. Because I, I was listening to some some piece of audio. I think it was a podcast, and they were talking about how you can still find Taylor Swift's original [00:33:00] Tumblr account when she was just getting started, and she recorded like tens of thousands of comments on Tumblr.
Because she was interacting with like, literally everybody who did anything, talked, anything about her music. She was, she was a workhorse. She was as engaged and supportive of her audience as like anybody has ever been. And you, you kind of have to do that. This is a struggle I'm having right now because my time is so full and so structured.
Yes, it's still a priority for me to publish on like every platform that I'm on, daily or weekly. But I'm running out of time to be as responsive to everyone outside of the community. And it's killing me because you get to where I'm at by seeing people, appreciating people, communicating with people responding to everything.
And I, I can't quite keep up with it. But anyway, it's, it's being responsive to the people who are paying attention. Participating in discussions [00:34:00] outside of your own content, believing that this will take three to four years. And just saying everything that I make, everything that I do, I'm gonna keep raising the bar a little bit.
It needs to be a little bit better. I need to make this whole online experience of me a little bit tighter. You know, this is, this is the only way that I've gotten where I am, because I haven't had like some . Crazy viral thing, except for maybe the YouTube video that we published like three weeks ago.
But I'm in year six here, so up through this first six years I didn't have some like turning point. It's just been me brute forcing, making things a little bit tighter, a little bit better, a little bit more standout, making the process feel different. Like every, every touch point somebody can have with my stuff, I want it to feel like, oh, Jay touched this.
This wasn't just like what the software allowed him to do. He made a decision here. and all of that takes time. It all takes time and everything that see, like
Brian: mentally, I think like the mental shift that I'm starting to make now [00:35:00] with, with that, and like, I think the reason why I never really took the audience content game super seriously or, or had too that much of a commitment for myself is because it always just felt like a, like a marathon, like a grind of just like, you just gotta keep doing the same thing over and over again. That's obviously true, and it is, it is gonna take years to, to really grow a significant audience. But the, the thing that I'm starting to get a little bit more excited about now is treating every single piece of content like its own new product. You know, 'cause I can,
I can get really excited about starting a new product. I'm, I'm, I'm like the
king of shiny object syndrome. Right? But, but the like, you know, if you treat every new podcast episode or every new YouTube video as like, how can I make this great for, for a particular audience and
make it make it better than the one that I did last month or something like that, then, then it's like a, a new game to, to think about.
Jay : totally,
It's a great way to [00:36:00] approach it because everything, everything that somebody has a touchpoint with should be accruing equity behind the overall project, like it should be additive to the body of work. I, I think a lot lately about. What makes something enduring versus, you know, ephemeral in today's, like, very fast food content world.
So I, I think a lot about, like, everything that I make, I want to make, there should be a case that, you know, not everything, but like 75% of the things that I make should still be relevant months from now, years from now. And even the, the systems and the processes too, like these things should be adding onto each other.
Where to focus your creative energy
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Brian: Yeah. So I guess like the, the last question still related to this idea of like somebody who's transitioning to become A full-time creator and then really starting to take this seriously, especially in 2024. What are you seeing as like, I know it's not as simple as like, if, [00:37:00] if the question is like, which channel is the best channel to focus all of your energy on, right?
Like, there are so many different ways to answer that question, but like How, how are you thinking about the different channels, especially how, how things are changing currently as we look ahead into 2024? There's one idea that's also starting to click with me. I think I might've heard it on one of your, you know, something from, from your stuff is, you know, like, I'm thinking a lot about YouTube right now, and I see YouTube primarily as like an exposure channel, like an audience growth channel, and then like email and podcasts are more of a relationship channel. That's where
somebody already knows me. They, they then subscribe to my podcast or they subscribe to my email newsletter, and that's where we go deep over the long term. But the YouTube channel is like, YouTube seems like a, a pretty good option these days if, if you're willing to put in the time and effort because the algorithm can serve you up to lots of [00:38:00] new people on a, on a regular basis.
Jay : That's the dichotomy that people should understand. Discovery platforms and relationship platforms, discovery
some. Organic or some mechanism for organic discovery. It's usually gonna be a platform that the platform itself is kind of using your product as their product, and they are monetizing with ads.
So their incentives are con to connect good content with consumers of content to keep people on platforms so they can monetize that attention with ads. So social media, YouTube, Google search. These are great discovery mechanisms. . . And then there's relationship platforms, which is the distribution system you build and own.
It's more reliable, but there's not any mechanism for new audience discovery the way that social media has. So that's email podcasting. SMS private communities. The game, in my opinion, is choosing a discovery platform and then directing that attention to a relationship platform that you build over time and the most common relationship [00:39:00] platform and.
The most tried and true is probably email. So most people starting today, I say email should be a part of your strategy. Even if you're not thinking that you're creating a quote unquote newsletter, email should be part of your strategy and you should choose a discovery platform that is natural and interesting to you probably as a consumer, because then you'll be better at learning the rules of that game.
And there's kind of a dichotomy there between are you more of a written person or a video person? It's rare that people are equally interested and capable of doing both. . So, you know, I think there's probably advantages to being a video person, but I think it's also harder.
Brian: Yep. Yeah, for sure. Well, Jay, I mean, we can keep going deep down so many of these, these rabbit holes. Maybe we can do it, you know, on another episode some time. But this has been awesome kind of learning about the, the science of being a creator.
Jay : Yeah. Thanks for having me, Brian.
Brian: Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks. Thanks for coming on the show, I was gonna say, thanks for having me on. I forgot. Oh, this is my podcast,