Pivoting and building awareness for a new product (in a competitive space) with J.R. Farr
===

Brian Casel: [00:00:00]

Hey, it's Open Threads. It's my podcast. I'm Brian Casel. Welcome to it. Back on the show today is J.R. Farr. We continue our conversation to talk about Lemon Squeezy. That is the flagship product from Make Lemonade. It's the dream team partnership that we talked about in the, in the previous episode with J.R.

Where J.R. And Orman Clark and their team over there have been building this, thing called Lemon Squeezy. And what's interesting to me is how this new product sort of evolved from being like a, digital downloads selling tool into something much bigger than that. And they are now focused on selling to SaaS. It's like a platform for building, very easily, your SaaS business and especially handling the, the trickier parts like, tax compliance and selling internationally into, into all different currencies. and all that kind of fun [00:01:00] stuff.

Anyway, what I was really interested to hear from JR in this episode is how they learned what they needed to do to, pivot and really grow and figure out what that product market fit looks like. And the other thing that J.R. is just incredible with in all of his businesses is strategically building awareness and building up that marketing energy and that branding energy during the first year of a brand new product. We, got into that quite a bit.

ZipMessage is the product that I work on every day. That's what sponsors this episode. It's for asynchronous messaging with your clients, with your teammates, with your freelancers. It's really cool. You should check it out, but I'll tell you a thing or two about that later in the show. For now, let's talk to J.R. about building awareness for a new product. Here we go.

So you know, continuing this conversation with J.R. Farr I want to get into Lemon [00:02:00] Squeezy. You know, in the, in the previous episode we just talked about how, you know, you came together with this amazing partnership over at Make Lemonade. And we talked about, you know, your, your transition from exiting MOJO Themes and then, you know, moving into, into this next chapter and going through a bunch of things over the last few years. All that was then. Now let's talk about Lemon Squeezy, which is the product that you've been working on under, under this Make Lemonade brand. How do you explain it today? Cause I, you know, again, like one of the things that, that sticks out to me, I've been sort of following your work on this from afar over the last year or two. I remember it being sort of one thing and then I looked at it recently. I was like, oh, wow, this is like almost different and bigger than I thought it was. So, how do you explain it today?

JR Farr: So let me guess, you probably looked at it as a Gumroad alternative

Brian Casel: It's exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah. I, I didn't know if you wanted me to say that or not, so I didn't

JR Farr: It's good and and it, actually kind of, it was very intentional to start [00:03:00] right? Like we had a big grandiose vision. Here's the thing, the founding team just like you, Brian you know this, we got together after 10 years of, 15 years of building stuff, selling digital products and we kind of like laughed like, man there's there's really not anything like super great out there yet. I mean like Stripe's amazing, but it's you've gotta I mean it's all API driven there's not a lot of, like, there's so much more you could do and.. And I guess.. This might be my my poor attempt at this Steve Jobs moment here, but I got on a call one day and I was like, started talking about this concept of Space Mountain. And I've said this multiple times but I'm gonna say it to you again cause I want you to kind of, this will set the stage for this conversation.

So if you've ever been to Disneyland, there's a ride called Space Mountain. When you go up to it, it's the whole thing from the line, to walking through into getting to the ride, it's an experience, right? Like you're just kind of captivated by what's going on. The lights are getting dark, and then once you get on ride it's pitch black and you have no idea what's going on. You're just seeing ahead of you [00:04:00] and you're just looking at lights and it's pulling you around, and it's just kind of taking you on this experience. But if I turn the lights on, You'd see rods and dust and wires and garbage and it would look disgusting, right?

And I, that's what I said to him. I was like, that's what it is today still. You've gotta go get a domain. You've gotta go get your website, you gotta connect your email thing, you've gotta do this, you've gotta connect this API over here. And honestly, like all the lights are still on. So I'm like, how do we make it to where someone can just come in and sell digital products. Digital, not physical, digital products, because it's a totally different animal compared to Shopify, right? There's a lot of abuse, there's license keys, there's, that's a whole mess. How do we make this easy peasy, right? And so that's where Lemon Squeezy, easy peasy kind of the whole idea came from. So, yeah.

Brian Casel: I mean, you're right. You know it it's amazing. Like a lot of times, like, you know, us tech folks are in this industry and we see all the, all the advanced tech that we're using and how we're building applications [00:05:00] these days and everything. And we feel like we're in this like world of the future with like, AI and, and Web3 and all this crazy stuff going on.

But we are still in the early days here. And it, and you're right, it, it is, we're still like kind of, you know, it does seem like we're cobbling together things.

JR Farr: Yeah And for some people it might make sense right. Like they want full control, I want to go to the Stripes APIs. I want to build everything by hand I want to know where, how this all works and that might make sense. And I think intentionally we're almost picking a fight that way where we might not be everything that you want. Now with that being said, we've gotten to a point now where like 80, 90% of the platform is all driven by, we have an API now that's exposed. So you can actually expose all of Lemon Squeezy if you wanted, just like Stripe. But yeah, so I think we intentionally went out that way.

Brian Casel: So can you like, help me understand like what is the best use case or the most common use case? Like is it for digital products, like, I'm selling a book or, or is it for SaaS, like I'm selling a [00:06:00] software subscription?

JR Farr: Yeah.

Brian Casel: Is it for physical products? Like is it for all of that? Like, yeah.

JR Farr: Good question. I think that's where you saw the divide come in, right? So we launched, we're kind of a Gumroad alternative, which essentially is what you said it's, it's downloadables, it's e-books, it's some courses, it's some, some sort of license key, it's WordPress themes, a plugin, whatever it is. Right. And that all was all fine and dandy, and I think everything we did was really, really good. And then we started getting a lot of requests like well I've got this, but then people need to log in and do this. So SaaS and stuff started coming up a lot, and so we were like, man we've gotta look-,

Brian Casel: Like my customers need to log in to something.

JR Farr: Yes, how do I do that? And we wanna use you guys because there's one other caveat that I'm gonna say that makes Lemon Squeezy very, very different and it's called a merchant record. And I don't know if everyone's familiar with that but, essentially what it means is rather than going out and creating you know all the PayPal accounts and Stripe accounts, it's you just leverage ours. And the beauty of that is you can accept instantly like payments across like [00:07:00] 20 different payment methods. You can accept PayPal, you can do it in 95 different currencies. And then we have a partnership with Wise.com. So like we pay out in nine, I don't even know what it is, 135 countries. Like it's you can't, you can't do that on Stripe. Some of the stuff that you can-

Brian Casel: Mm-hmm.

JR Farr: -do on Lemon Squeezy. We've, we've broken down some big global barriers.

Brian Casel: Interesting.

JR Farr: But to get back to your point about use cases, started out with Gumroad and then the SaaS stuff came out. And that's where we kind of took a moment to say, look, Lemon Squeezy is so much bigger than just some digital downloads. Yes, you can do that here and we'll always have that distribution channel. We'll have landing pages and things to feed in that type of customer, but we're gonna go to market as being the easiest way to handle payments, taxes, and subscriptions for SaaS companies. So the, right now it's strict.. It's, yeah, we're going after SaaS companies that are looking to not only handle payments, but the tax side. That's why I was bringing that up because when you get into-

Brian Casel: Interesting.

JR Farr: -digital stuff, again, different than physical, and this is something that's [00:08:00] really boring and non-sexy and people don't like to talk about, but sales tax and VAT tax is a real thing. And you know, as more and more dollars get shifted to online, the countries want their money and there's some big penalties, I mean, even all the way to prison, right? If you don't pay 'em like it's tax fraud-

Brian Casel: Hmm.

JR Farr: -So

Brian Casel: And are you, I mean, I wanna unpack the evolution of going from like, being like the initial idea, like a Gumroad competitor into something much larger than that and, and going towards SaaS companies. But just on that point, I'm curious to know about, like, is the main idea to sell it to established SaaS companies with like high revenues and they, and they want to like migrate over to Lemon Squeezy or is it for like startup SaaS, their first thousand customers? I'm sure it's a bit of both, but like, where's the main focus?

JR Farr: Yeah. Right now it's actually the former. It's the larger, more established companies.

Brian Casel: Mm.

JR Farr: We've got, I think we've we've done a great job, I think with like customer acquisition for, for brand new stores coming on and handling taxes, and handling low code, no code. We've get [00:09:00] a ton of tools like that so you can get up and running super quick. That's what the first year and a half was. But now our focus has definitely shifted towards established companies. So we've built Stripe migrations, Paddle migrations, Gumroad migrations, syncing tools, so when you do migrate, it syncs between the two systems so you can feel comfortable when you move over.

And what happens is, a great example, I was dealing with a company this week and they've reached a certain point of threshold uh revenue across the globe. And he, we got reached out to, because their tax accountant said, you need to collect taxes in these countries. You, you got VAT issues, you've gotta go find someone to help you do this. And so he's like, I stumbled across you guys, and Stripe doesn't offer this-

Brian Casel: Hmm.

JR Farr: -so we are migrating from Stripe over to you guys for this reason. So-

Brian Casel: I love it. You know what I'm really interested in that, is this transition, right? Because I, I'm going through it myself with, with ZipMessage. So like the first year of ZipMessage, I, I sort of had a concept even in the early days. It it started as like a different idea than what it turned out to [00:10:00] be.

JR Farr: Absolutely.

Brian Casel: And in the whole first year it, it, I was sort of selling it to a whole range of different users. And then I learned like, who is our best user and who, who, who sees this as much more essential, and how can this become a bigger product? Like who wants it to be a bigger product? And in my case, it it's coaches, so we're building towards them. I'm, curious like what happened in, or what did you see in, in the, in the early trends, like what were customers saying? Like how did you decide to make that that transition?

JR Farr: Yeah. So probably the most direct thing and simple.. It sounds really simple but we're pretty good, we still think we are, but talking to the customers, like surveys, like detailed surveys, questions, what do you sell with, what do you, how do you use it? Like, even down to like your checkout experience, do you guys want a full API that you can customize or do you want to, you love jars, do you wanna.. Like there's so many different.. But really it, there was just so much pent up demand, constant support tickets, and then through those surveys [00:11:00] we just kept seeing SaaS and SaaS and SaaS. And so sounds kind of simple, but to be honest, the founders I talked to, I don't know if when's the last time you sent a survey to talk to your customers, right?

Like, you might be better than most, but I would say majority of people are.. They get-

Brian Casel: Yeah, a lot of people don't.

JR Farr: -scared, they get gun shy to like ask a customer something. And so, I would say we've been like almost borderline annoying asking them what it-

Brian Casel: Hmm.

JR Farr: -is that they want.

Brian Casel: You know, you make a good point. I literally, just this week I did another outreach to uh, we're, we're building all these features for coaches. So I have a smaller group of coach customers and I'm showing them like, all the designs as we're building them. And you know, the, the truth is like not everyone responds.

Some of them take a few weeks to respond. I do sort of hammer them with like research questions. Can I get on another call with you to ask you some more research questions? And I'm doing that all the time. And, but at the end of the day, it's so helpful. And I do, I do run surveys and I usually use the surveys to figure out who are the best people to get onto calls with. [00:12:00]

JR Farr: Yeah. I think what happened though, to be like totally frank, is we launched this Gumroad thing and because we are a merchant of record, there's a ton and tons of countries that actually can't use Stripe. And so they were like, we need a way that you guys can pay in my country. I can accept payments because you're the merchant of record. But I have a SaaS, you know what I mean? So like, can you build that? Can you make that? So we started doing like little onesie twosie things like, well, here, we'll give you this part of our API to kind of do that. And then eventually it just got to a point where there was just so many of those types of things happening where actual real customers pushing volume through the platform. They were like, we just need to lean into this.

Brian Casel: Awesome.

Hey, sorry to interrupt. Can we hop on a call today and have a meeting about that thing that you're working on? Ugh. I know, right? Another Zoom call. Really. Here's a better idea. Replace your next meeting with an asynchronous conversation using ZipMessage. It's the video messaging tool that lets you share a [00:13:00] link with anyone to have a threaded async conversation all on one page.

Record, send and receive messages on video, screen share audio messages, or text. Your customers, clients and freelancers don't need to download or install anything in order to reply to your ZipMessages. They just click your link and record their response. Reserve your own link, like ZipMessage.com/ your name and share your intake page with anyone or embed it on your own website.

Automatic transcriptions, Zapier integration, reusable message templates, and more. ZipMessage is made for the way that you communicate asynchronously with your team and your customers. Go to ZipMessage.com and use it for free as long as you want with unlimited messages and responses. And for listeners of this podcast, mention Open Threads and get 50% off your first two months on our premium plan.

Okay, back to the show.

[00:14:00] So I wanna get into a little bit of like marketing and just building awareness. I mean, obviously, you know, you and and your team have sort of like a built-in audience that gives you that like initial traction or, or like a boost when you're, when you're launching something new.

But what were some of the milestones or, wins like early on? Or, or really, I guess before you even unveiled Lemon Squeezy to the world. Like you're just planning it, designing it before anyone even knows about it. Like what is your game plan in terms of like step number one to let people know that this new thing is, is coming and that it exists? Like how do you, how do you think about that initial launch?

JR Farr: Oh gosh. So that's a really good question cuz there's so many things. I mean, not, you know, a lot of people say, you know, let's build an audience, right? But it's like, how do I do that? So yeah, to your point, we had some built-in stuff, which helped. I would say content's an interesting one. You can go build content, but it's like, I can only create so [00:15:00] many SEO articles to like really make this worthwhile. I think that we.. Product Hunt was an interesting one. We thought, you know, that was something that we kind of tried. Again, I don't know if this comes from all the experience of knowing kind of what to focus on, but like, and I'll, I'll try to answer your question more directly, but like, product Hunt's a good example, right?

So we launched. We put it out on Product Hunt thinking this is what most people do. And we ended up winning or becoming a finalist for like Product of the year on Product Hunt in 2021. Went through like the whole award show, the rehearsals and then we went down to the finalist and we ended up taking like third place or something but.. That was crazy, but my point of bringing that up was, it really didn't do a whole lot, right? Like, I mean, yeah, we got some users and stuff, but they, it was kind of shitty traffic, you know? It wasn't, wasn't intentful, but it definitely gave us like a, know, little bit of a endorphin hit, right?

Where you're kind of excited and, and this was good, but [00:16:00] I would say it goes back to like just building up hype around something. And building in public. if if you're like, don't know what to do, I would just say build in public. Like tweet every day, post something every day. I posted constantly - I didn't do SEO content - I did like, I called them lemon drops and we were just posting lemon drops constantly about what's coming, screenshots. And then we were all, we all made it an agreement that we're like, Hey, everybody, get on Twitter, talk on Twitter. That's gonna be the one social channel. We're not gonna try and do YouTube, Twitter and Instagram and LinkedIn. And we're just gonna focus on Twitter cause that's all we have time for.

Brian Casel: Yeah. And I think that really like, that, that plays to your strengths, right? Like you're all actually on Twitter and, and you're a very design oriented, work-in-public type of people anyway. You know, we talked all about like the, the brand of Make Lemonade and like, it's sort of like in your ethos anyway, so it's like you're playing to your strengths.

Like that's an easy thing to be successful with for.. Like, it's not the kind of thing that like everyone should listen to and like, well, [00:17:00] I should just do what they did. Right. But I think in your case, that makes a lot of sense.

JR Farr: And we, we took steps. They were, they were premeditated steps, right? Like, let's launch the Make Lemonade brand. Let's announce the team together. Let's get everybody excited about that. Then let's get this ready and let's get this landing. Let's cuz the MacBook giveaway and then let's do some lemon drops and then let's do.. So there is definitely there..

My point in the Twitter was, I think a lot of times people just spread themselves so thin and it's just double down on like one thing that you're actually pretty good at and just do that rather than trying to do a million things at once, we're trying to launch it, right? Like, I gotta do my email list and I gotta do my, my paid ads and I gotta do my SEO, and I got, and then, and then you end up doing nothing, right?

Brian Casel: Yeah,

JR Farr: Consistency's king.

Brian Casel: I feel like this is one of the things that I don't do so well, but you, you do really well is like in that first year, like year number one. Again, like most people don't know that this new product exists yet, -

JR Farr: Mm-hmm.

Brian Casel: So you're just like running things. Whether it's Product Hunt, a MacBook giveaway. We, we talked about in the previous episode, the way we met, it was like, [00:18:00] you, you gave me an iPad. Cuz back like over 10 years ago, you launched MOJO Themes, which went on to be this, you know, amazing, successful company, but it launched with a contest.

JR Farr: Right,

Brian Casel: You know,-

JR Farr: Right.

Brian Casel: -to just put a splash out there. Just get people's eyeballs on this thing.

JR Farr: Mm-hmm.

Brian Casel: There's gonna be some noise, there's gonna be a lot of like, not so qualified customers coming through, but people know it exists. Right?

JR Farr: Yeah

Brian Casel: And then you sort of just like stack those up over the course of a year or, or more. And, and it builds. I mean, can you like, I don't know, like speak to that? Like are these things that you're just like constantly coming up with like, where are we gonna get the next jolt of, of energy at the top of the funnel?

JR Farr: Like here's a here's a good example, right so so meeting today. And Yeah. I'm constantly, I can't sleep half the time. Cause I'm trying to think of how else could we market? How c.. There's so much spamming our Twitter, our attention no matter where you're sitting, right? Like there's something getting your attention. So how can I, how can I get that? And I [00:19:00] think that goes back to like when you saw the clear divide that like Lemon Squeezy is meant right now for SaaS companies or ZipMessage is meant for coaches. Now you've got like this audience that you know how to speak to, you're gonna learn how to speak to them. You're gonna learn what drives them, what motivates them. You know what I mean? Rather than like trying to shoot fish in a barrel, right? Like you're, you're being much more sniper approached.

And I think that that's, probably the first nut to crack for anybody listening is like, it's, again, the stuff I'm saying, it sounds simple. It's, but it's, you've got to do these fundamental things before you go and do all these different things. And so to answer your question, one, I think we did a decent job of creating processes around it. So like tweeting or emailing. It's like every Monday an email goes out. Every Thursday a piece of content goes out. Every.. There's just stuff that like, can't, the, the rules can't be broken on these things. And then the other stuff is like ideas, you've gotta have a backlog of creative ideas to get you to look different than anybody else. Cause there's so much out there.

So [00:20:00] here's an example from today's meeting. We have a, an account you know, they've been with us beta and, and he's built Figma Academy, which is a, an online course for Figma. And he's done great. I mean, everybody from Spotify to Amazon to everybody uses Figma Academy and he's about to hit a really big revenue milestone. And so I am I'm actually borderline stalking his Twitter accounts and his Pinterest accounts, trying to find something. And I'm gonna send him kind of like the YouTube plaque. Cuz my hope is that, you know, we'll send it to him and he'll, he'll tweet it. You get a, you get a big nice, you know, organic response from that. But that's stuff that's like marketing, but it's not in your face guerilla type marketing. It's just, it's more, yeah, organic.

Brian Casel: Yeah, I mean like my favorite thing, my favorite thing to do in marketing are things that are just interesting and fun to do anyway and worth doing anyway, right? That is really the best [00:21:00] marketing, especially when you're trying to sell to folks like us who are difficult to, to market to, right? Because we like, you know, we're not gonna click on like any, like Google ad or banner ad, like, you know, we, we have to be sort of like wined and dined a little bit with, with some really interesting,-

JR Farr: Yes

Brian Casel: -whatever it, you know, whatever it is, it's gotta, it's gotta stand out, right?

JR Farr: And to, and, and to your point, like obviously everything I'm saying is, and I'm going over it really fast but, it's all gonna depend on your business, your market, your target audience, you know, and, and.. But I would say definitely, like don't forget the fundamentals. Come up with your offer. What makes you different? Right? Like, why are we different than Stripe? Well, we're the, we take care of all your taxes, you know.

Brian Casel: Mm-hmm.

JR Farr: And I think we, you know, we've got email and we've got, we're trying to, we're actually trying to bundle everything rather than unbundle everything, which is a different concept. So..

Brian Casel: Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And, and I'm, I, again, I think you do that really well really like honing in on the unique differentiator. So, did [00:22:00] that come out of your surveys and talking to customers and you just started to see trends in terms of like, the number one question people are asking about, like, let's, let's really focus on, on that.

JR Farr: Yeah, for sure. And I, I think a lot of it too is like, we do have a little bit of, we're in an interesting space with payments where it's, super aggressive, right? Like, it's.. And we're not funded with, what is it, like 19 billion dollars of Stripe. I don't even know what they're funded at this point. So part of us is starting to think more, not just differentiators but moats. How do we create more moats around the business where when we do acquire customers, we maintain them, or there's other features that it's not just around payments, but it's, it's other things.

Brian Casel: Yeah.

JR Farr: Some of those are because we're the merchant of record, you know, we've got a, some this affiliate feature that's coming out. We've got a marketplace feature. You know, we've got close to 15,000 products, so we can release a marketplace for people to shop. If you wanna list your Lemon Squeezy products in there, that will drive [00:23:00] traffic kinda like-

Brian Casel: Hmm.

JR Farr: -an Amazon. You know, that'll maybe stick them a little bit. Right? So there's all these things we're constantly thinking about to keep them sticky with Lemon Squeezy. Yeah.

Brian Casel: It's, it's really cool what you guys are building. I mean, it's established. It's, it's there. You could use it today. I guess like the, the last question to start to wrap up here. I, I was talking to, to Benedikt Deicke from Userlist on one of the recent episodes. And we talked about how to prioritize or how, how all of us in, in SaaS are trying to figure out which features to build next and which ones to prioritize. That I find is one of the hardest things. It, it gets easier once you really start to hone in on like, all right, these are our best customers. What do our best customers want?

Yeah. How do you, how do you guys think about that? Again like since you've, you've shifted focus into, you know, toward this, this like platform for SaaS companies, like, and still that's a huge, like a huge landscape of like needs to, to satisfy, right?

JR Farr: Yeah, it doesn't stop.

Brian Casel: Yeah. Like how do you figure out like what's the best thing to build next?

JR Farr: [00:24:00] Yeah, and it's interesting too cuz as the team's growing then we have different people that can take on more projects. So that kind of.. So I, I'll answer it like this. I think we're intentionally building, Make Lemonade a certain way. Like it's nice because when you have a company like, like Make Lemonade where we're thinking in a decade, the way you start to think about priorities and stuff, you don't feel so rushed and you feel more open-minded to like.. So for example, we don't just like rush a project out, like the affiliate feature's taken us quite a bit of time and people are getting actually kind of frustrated, but it's gotta be right. And we're also not gonna just lock in a deadline and then march to the death where we just pass out by the time we launch it. So we're trying to be good about that. So we've gotta balance that. And then I'd say in terms of like internal prioritizing, you know, it's like you said, if we've got like a pretty big customer talking to us, we're gonna build that for 'em.

But outside of that, we use a product called Height, Height.app. And, we do like low impact versus [00:25:00] high effort or high impact versus low effort, like that type of stuff. We have like four different things, you know, that we match all of our.. We have, I don't even know, I'm looking at my backlog right now, 300 and something things in the backlog, and they're all groomed. We try to groom them frequently, and that's something that we work in the, in the Base Camp, Shape Up thing. So every six weeks we have a cycle, and then what do we have an appetite for? So that really helps us figure out like how far do we go with the feature? Like this is the feature everybody's asking for, but our appetite's only this big for this feature. So we're just gonna do this, launch it and then we'll get feedback and then we'll make it even.. Before we go commit to this massive feature update.

Brian Casel: I love it. Love it.

JR Farr: Yeah

Brian Casel: you know, as we're, we're right here at the end of 2022, sort of what is coming up next? You mentioned the affiliate feature. Is that like a big focus for you and any other, like big projects or plans or even like separate products or anything like, it seems like you guys are always doing like interesting stuff, like what's happening in [00:26:00] in 2023 for you all?

JR Farr: Good question. Yeah, so the affiliates big too for Lemon Squeezy store owner or like counts because they'll be a Lemon Squeezy affiliate. So you can imagine we've got 10,000 accounts now. So when they all get their affiliates signed up, they'll become a Lemon Squeezy affiliates. So we'll have a huge network, so they can promote all the products within Lemon Squeezy. So that will give all accounts a big boost of sales and traffic, which I'm really excited about. And then inside of Lemonade, you know, we have like, one of the ones that we're, I think that we're kind of excited about is Premium Pixels.

But before we go there, I mean, we've been, I won't say their names, but if you think about some of the biggest designs, websites in the world and design tools in the world, they're talking to us right now about white labeling and partnerships. We're powering their marketplaces and their stores-.

Brian Casel: Oh, wow. With, with Lemon Squeezy.

JR Farr: [00:27:00] Yeah, behind the scenes with APIs, so if we land those-

Brian Casel: Okay.

JR Farr: -deals, then that will, that will blow up a lot of our roadmap. But it's a, those are massive opportunities with some of the biggest names. So, we're really excited about that. So..

Brian Casel: I mean, it's always interesting following what, what you guys are working on over there. We're gonna get everything linked up, in the show notes. Like I said in, in the last episode, like, if nothing else, just go to, like, read the copy and look at the designs and look.. And again, like look at the way that you guys handle brand and messaging and, just building awareness in an interesting, fun way. It's, it's really inspiring. So really cool.

JR Farr: Thanks man. Appreciate that.

Brian Casel: Cool. All right. Well, thanks J.R.

JR Farr: Yeah, it was good to it's good to catch up, man. This is, this has been fun.

Brian Casel: Yeah. We'll have to do it again.

All right.

Well, that wraps up today's Open Thread. Hey, tell me what you think. I'm on Twitter @casjam, and [00:28:00] right after that, head over to iTunes and give this show a five star review. Really helps it reach more folks like us. I appreciate it. Talk to you next week.

h