From Founder to Coaching Founders with Justin Ferriman
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Brian: [00:00:00] You're about to hear my conversation with Justin Ferriman. He returns to the show and we continue our conversation about Justin's transition from founder and then exiting into becoming a coach for other founders. Let's get into it.

So I'm about to roll the conversation that I had with Justin Ferriman. This is a continuation of the one that we previously published on this podcast. So this conversation was recorded on November 10th, 2023. And in the previous episode with Justin, we talked all about how he built up LearnDash and then sold it and had a fantastic exit from that business.

Then he sort of explored what was next for his next chapter, right? He, he looked into, or he started to work on a SaaS product, but eventually found his way to becoming a coach for other founders. And we got into that whole transition process of becoming going from founder to becoming a coach for other founders.

It's a good, it's a great conversation. Here it is [00:01:00] with Justin Ferriman. Enjoy.

you're coming off this, you know, hugely like successful exit like . You don't need this business to work, and you don't need this business to be super hard. , you know,

Justin Ferriman: Yeah. Yeah.

That's, that's kinda where I got to. I was like, this isn't fun

like, as I was doing it. Um,

Justin's coaching story
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Justin Ferriman: And so as actually during this time that I was running things that I was having informal, I had people reaching out to me, like on Twitter or X saying like, Hey, do you do coaching? Just randomly, I'd never even said that.

I was kind of doing it informally with some people anyway, and I was like, ah, no, I'm not. But that's what really got me thinking more about Coaching. 'cause I love business and entrepreneurship and all that, but at this point in my life, maybe this will change, I don't know. But like, I don't wanna be running a software like some company, a product company, let's put it that way.

I was like, I've never [00:02:00] done a service, I've never done coaching

like formally outside of when I consulted years ago. So I wanted to give that a shot and it's been fun. I've, I've been liking it a lot

and I've, and we can talk about like my approach there, but it's it, it. is

Brian : So this is like, like what, like a few months, a few months old now that you're into, into the coaching.

Justin Ferriman: Yeah I started officially and so what I did is I got certified through the PBCA which is a coaching certification

thing. There's several, but this won't work. They, they're like an invite only. They kind of look at what you've done and if it makes sense. They try to have like people with a lot of experience or deep experience in, in certain areas.

I wanted to get certified, not because I feel like it's a necessity to coach, but I was like, you know, if I had some frameworks or something like ideas that I could build upon, I think I'd like that. So I did that and I got some ideas and some, and some frameworks, and that's been, and maybe a little confidence in, in doing that.

And, and then in September of this year I, I kind of let people know I didn't even have a [00:03:00] website wanna let people know. I just like tweeted about it or posted about it and had a Google doc that I sent folks. And that's how I started getting my first, my first clients. Um,

The Know/Like/Trust list
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Justin Ferriman: There's a something called the know, like trust list.

And so you just kind of stick with people that know you, like you or trust you and exhaust that as as much you can and try to build that. So I was focusing on that piece before like any kind of outward marketing.

Brian : You know, this is super interesting. I, I love this podcast because it's like, I, I am literally doing that today. , like

I, I wrote up. So I'm, I'm just developing like a new coaching offer. And I've, I've dabbled in some coaching in the past with like productized services and stuff, and now I'm looking to do some more like product strategy, actually more like technical product.

Product work with, with folks. And that's exactly what I did. I, I wrote up a one pager and drafted it a few times, showed it around to a couple friends privately this past week, designed a new page for it, and literally this morning I DMed probably like 30. [00:04:00] Friends in the industry,

Justin Ferriman: That's the way

to go.

Brian : took a look at this.

Like, I'd love your feedback on this and if you, if you know someone who might be a fit i'd, I'd love an introduction. Actually, I, I mean, I'm gonna send it your way. I would've sent it to you this morning, but I knew that we were gonna talk today

Justin Ferriman: Yeah, I'd love to see it

Ideation to execution
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Brian : Yeah. So I, right. It's just so, so cool how it's like real time and that's exactly it.

Right? So, so you sent, so you put up together like a Google doc kind of outlining your thesis around your, your coaching offer. Sense it around to some folks. Where, where did it go from there?

Justin Ferriman: So the step, I guess that was step one, but step zero was I, I kind of thought about what I wanted to say on X and I posted there and then I wrote on my personal blog, which doesn't have like a ton of subscribers or anything. It is literally like sometimes I post about trips I take,

sometimes it's business, but I posted there as well. And through those methods I had people reaching out. 'cause I was like, dmm me or whatever. So I got people, I guess, inbound interests. And I sent them that doc. So I was like, okay, yeah, here it is. And the way I, it outlined what I was doing, but [00:05:00] I was like, free hour, let's just talk about your business and like experience it first. I'll tell you more about it at the end. If you wanna sign up. Cool. If not, whatever. Like, to your point, I think that's a nice approach to take. 'cause like I don't need to do this. I think and, and I'm trying to do it differently than what, like a lot of the common advice is like, hey, create something that you can turn into a course essentially

and, and get this volume play and da da da.

It's like I'm doing very hands-on very high touch.

In fact, I'm like 75% full and my clients probably will finish that in Q1 next year and just be like, I'm done. 'cause I don't wanna work more than Let's call it 20 to 40 hours a month on this.

I wanna bring the energy.

How Justin is structuring his coaching offerings
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Brian : So I wanted to ask you about that. Like how, how are you structuring it? What, what is kind of like the different spin on, on coaching and, and also when you talk about it being full, like how do you define full? Like what's your, what's your plate or your of of work that you're taking on there?

Justin Ferriman: yeah, so the way it's structured is it's three aspects. One is a one-on-one call with me once a month. [00:06:00] That's like our hour 15, whatever we're talking about. And we're going over challenges and creating some action items. Those are really like deep dives and they can be high level in terms of like strategy or they can be deep into, I'm creating a landing page.

Let's talk about, I. You know how to optimize it because I've had experience there. Then the other part of it is a founder round table or mastermind or what have you, where the people I'm coaching, we eat together, we have a, a call and we do a similar exercise where everybody says kind of like, Hey, this is a challenge I'm facing. They get clarification questions. We do like one round of clarification, and then everybody goes and says, if it were me, I would, and they would just kind of give their advice. Those have been really cool because I have these folks from different industries. The commonality being everybody's kind of a remote founder, you know, they don't have like a physical building or anything. And, you know, people that are in services have ideas that maybe aren't directly the solution, but they spark ideas for the product people and vice versa. And it becomes a really cool [00:07:00] environment and, and I guess altruistic

Brian : That's a really cool idea. It's, it's almost like, it sounds like it's, it's, it's still mostly like a one-on-one coaching relationship, but they get the benefit of talking shop and getting ideas from the other folks that you coach. But I, I wouldn't, it doesn't sound like it's, it people think of as like a group coaching program.

It's still more like the element of like the one-to-one. Would you say.

Justin Ferriman: Yeah, there is an, there's an intimacy to it that's a little bit different and. It, it's not required either. Like, it's possible also to just have two, one-on-ones with me in a month as opposed to that. But that there's people that really enjoy that aspect. But the third part that makes it very non-scalable is I give 24 7 access to me.

You get my phone number, my WhatsApp I have an app that you get that get message through as well, and we track action items there and I answer any question. That

my clients have. It could be about, Hey, I'm looking at two different email systems. What should I use? Like I have a ton of experience there. If somebody [00:08:00] had, once they were picking up their daughter from work and they had an employee issue and he just kind of called me to get it off his chest and

then maybe asked for my advice, I was like, okay, well I've dealt with something similar is what I would do. So I make myself like kind of that person that they can just reach out to.

Like, I wonder what Justin would think on this.

And I get, and they take advantage of that and I love them too, but that's why I can't Take on a ton of clients because that would drain me. And I want to, I want to answer those with like, excitement and energy. Not like, ugh, another one.

So that's that's the third part that ties it together that I've been receiving, you know, the one-on-one, the founder, and then just having me there anytime.

And I'm pretty quick to respond because I consider these folks, you know, friends you know, more than just like a, a number that's in the course. You know, this is somebody that I'm working with, I have a relationship with.

Brian : Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I'm still kind of figuring my thing out here, but, but I'm definitely gonna be leaning pretty heavily on asynchronous coaching.

So like the two options would be like an async only option, and the other option is [00:09:00] like that plus, you know, up to two calls a month. You know, obviously using my tool Clarityflow for, for being able to like, send

Justin Ferriman: Obviously. Yeah.

Brian : yeah.

But like I, it's sort of like a, a version of what I have been doing for free with founder friends for, for years. Like literally like, like swapping video messages back and forth, looking at each other's products, giving each other feedback kind of collaborating like creatively, technically, strategically, and, you know, yeah, like, like you were just talking about, I'm curious to hear more about like your making yourself available. 'cause as I'm like writing the copy for this page, I wanna make it like I am available for like, you can literally send me requests or we can collaborate asynchronously as much as you want throughout the month.

You know, I, I'm thinking about like structuring it where it's like we can work on like one request at a time. Like we can't start a new request until we've . Closed the current request or whatever.

But like how does that actually play out in, in practice for [00:10:00] you in terms of like fielding calls and texts and emails and things like that?

Justin Ferriman: Yeah, it's with each person, it, it's kind of cyclical. Sometimes folks are going through something. I'll get a lot of messages from one individual or one client within like a 48 to 72 hour thing as they're kind of working through something. And then I won't hear from them,

you know, until our next call and

I'm like, Hey, how about turn out? I think as founders like that, you can probably relate. Like sometimes there's just something that's just so pressing and that like, it's What you're totally immersed in for a, a week or what have you. So like in those moments, just having that outlet, like, okay, before I move on this, let me just double check, get one more opinion from somebody that's been there before.

Brian : You know, and that's where something like this is like so valuable, like to, to literally have a paid coaching relationship like this as opposed to . Just mastermind groups or just being friends with other founders. 'cause I've gone through this for so many years before, before this where it's like, you know, I [00:11:00] have really close founder friend relationships that I can rely on, like, good quality feedback.

But when I'm going through something, if, if something is like happening this week in my business and I really need some, some help or maybe a therapy session or, or, or, or whatever it might be like. There's always that hesitancy. Like I know that they're running their business. I don't want to like disturb them with my shit, you know?

So like, it like having a more formal advisor, coach relationship

Justin Ferriman: And if you're giving them money, they kind of owe it to you.

So

Brian : Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the

Justin Ferriman: they're paying me, you know, they're paying me, so I'm there for them. It's you know, I don't do any like long-term contracts just month

by month. And so far it's, that resonates with folks.

Brian : Yeah. Very cool. I mean, you talked about keeping it to a certain size and management level for, for it to remain enjoyable for you.

Justin Ferriman: Mm-Hmm?

Brian : you thought about, I mean, you have, you have branded it under the name Bright Growth, you know,

Justin Ferriman: Yes.

Keeping room for growth
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Brian : It seems like it's sort of [00:12:00] like its own thing. Is this like something that you could see yourself like growing even like beyond you into, into a larger sort of company, or are, is it gonna remain more of like a lifestyle type type thing for you?

Justin Ferriman: Great question. Right now, just lifestyle. But I did brand it in the way with that thinking of like, maybe that will change one day. Like I want that option. I don't have that, the desire right

now. But if it was just like Justin Ferriman. I dunno, it's like I'm not trying to be some, some thought leader, personal branding.

There's nothing wrong with that, but like, that's not what I have interest in. So giving it a little brand, you know, something that I could maybe have, maybe there are some courses that I could add at some point, but I would probably do it different. Like a good example is I, I have these free hour calls with people and we get a lot of good stuff done and they're excited. But they're just not at that point where they're like, I, I don't know if I can justify spending on this because we're pre-revenue or whatever. It would be cool [00:13:00] maybe if I had some kind of course or something that touched on these common themes with those folks that

they could, I'd be like, Hey, you know what?

That's fine. I do have this and this could help you.

That's more or less how I'd want to do it. And I guess with Bright Growth a brand, I could do that. But right now, I guess I would say I'm just collecting data. 'cause I'm, I have those calls and I'm kind of trying to identify some themes and if I want to put in the energy for a course,

I'll do that.

But honestly, it's, it's like on paper it sounds good, but to do it right, it needs to be, you know, a lot of effort. I'm like, I don't, like I said, like I don't want to be consumed by

this. I have other things I like doing.

Justin on marketing his coaching business
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Brian : Yeah. I love it. I, I guess like before we wrap it up here, like how are you marketing this? If, if at all, like, are you, are you getting these requests for potential new clients to fill up your roster? Are they still coming, like. Kind of organically through your network or are you doing any sort of like active branding or growth for, for this thing?

Justin Ferriman: I guess all of the above. I do, I, I [00:14:00] am fortunate that LearnDash had the presence that had, so if somebody stumbles across, like I do get some cold outreach now and again. I've actually, this is kind of fun. I, I started blogging on Medium because I was like, oh,

I could start a blog. Obviously I've experienced there. I. But I was like, lemme try blogging a medium. And the amount of reach I get without having to worry about all the SEO and all that stuff is crazy. I've gotten clients from there. I had somebody that reached out to me, they'd even want the strategy call. They reached out to me like, Hey, how can I sign up, sign up with him?

He's a great client, super engaged. And it was just from an article I had to call this week with somebody up in San Francisco. Has a great product. Ideas. Pre-launch, probably well Says he's really interested in joining. We'll see. But he found me in the article too, like I had no idea who he was. So like Medium is a really cool place for getting your name out there. But aside from that, the biggest area, the most effective and impactful is I'll call him, I'll call it warm outreach. I find people that maybe I've never even met them, [00:15:00] but I, I know their product and I'm like, man, I could help them. I'll just message 'em on, on X. And I've just been, that's how I've been messaging X, not LinkedIn or anything.

It didn't really work for me. I've tried it. And I just like, very casual, right? Like, I'm just like, Hey, you know, like, do you wanna have a conversation? I love what you're doing. I think I think I could help in some ways. If you're open to it, here's a document that explains what I'm doing and there's my meeting invite is in there.

So let's, let's jump on a call for an hour. You know, there's no obligation. I'm not gonna hard sell you.

I hate being hard sold, so

Being active in a community > Hard sell
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Brian : I love that. I, I mean, are, is that, are you getting like, receptive, like people are receptive to that because they, they know you, they know LearnDash? Or is

Justin Ferriman: Yeah, that helps.

Brian : like, nice.

Justin Ferriman: helps for sure. But not everybody is they may know LearnDash certainly before my name. But in some cases I've just reached out to people that maybe aren't even WordPress.

And was like, Hey, you know, like this is what I'm doing. They'll research me afterwards and just be like, oh yeah, I think I've heard.

Yeah. Okay. And, and they still want to have the call, which is cool,

but [00:16:00] other people, they either know me or, or learn Ash or it's like through a friend. And I try to just be a part of the community on acts in any way and help out and post, usually daily just to be active. And sometimes I get found that way through just posts I make and then people will reach out to me.

So. It's just all about relationships. I'm not trying to hard sell.

I'm not trying to do anything that's scalable. I mean, when I do these messages, I'm not using any software that automates it, like

I'm, I am looking at the company.

I am writing a unique message and I'm sending it.

Brian : It really just speaks to the value of just doing interesting things and being well connected in this industry. And it's not like something that you can just do overnight or even do within, usually a year, but it's like over, over time in, in this career, I mean, between building and growing and selling companies or, or just having a podcast and putting yourself out there,

Justin Ferriman: Yeah,

Brian : it makes it easier to DMM people and, and have connections kind of [00:17:00] pop

Justin Ferriman: it really does.

Brian : know?

Um, I, I just wanted to real quick, like, like touch back on the, on the medium thing. That's super interesting too. I, I'm I, so in the previous episode of this podcast, I spoke to Jay Clouse, who, who really is focused on like creators and creator type businesses, and I've been following his content a lot recently and.

been really thinking a lot about this and, and it's almost like, it's weird how like our whole industry has like optimized for like SEO on our own domains, you know, and there's obviously a ton of value to that, but,

Justin Ferriman: Yeah.

Brian : but the reach that you can get if you really optimize and put a lot of effort into one of these social platforms, whether it's medium,

I mean, like right now I'm, I'm really researching a lot into YouTube and thinking about putting a lot of new effort on YouTube next year.

Justin Ferriman: be great.

Brian : Because it's, it's like, it's hard to do it. Well, it's a lot of effort and a lot, a lot of time, but the YouTube algorithm just serves you up to a growing [00:18:00] audience, like at all times. You know? So it's, I mean, if you can, if you can do it well, if you could put in the effort, like yes, it's a platform and yes, like they're, they're gonna run ads on your stuff, but like, that's, that's how you can actually like, connect with

Like not just relying on word of mouth or a network. It's like that's how you can start to grow, you know?

Using quality content to build trust
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Justin Ferriman: Yeah. You're, you're a hundred percent right. And as a WordPress or through and through, you know, I know the value of writing in on your own website. I know as of today in this quarter of the year, there's been all this fluctuation in Google's algorithm and the

search results. Like, it's been nice to have to worry about it because Medium still does well, and I, you know, not every article I hit is obviously, or right.

Is gonna be a hit. Sometimes. I, I just got lucky. I remember I wrote one and it still does well for me. Is about like how to make your, how to get to 1 million a RRR in your startup. So, I had done that, so I wrote an article about it. Medium has their own algorithm where if they see there's [00:19:00] interest, they'll boost it, like you said with YouTube.

So it got, it got boosted and like the views shot up like more organic traffic. 'cause they give you the breakdown where people come from on platform, meaning on medium. or from like Google or other places. And like it was like I'm in search results. I'm like all these places I could never get to.

Have I been starting and slogging away on my own site with a blog? It just to me, I'd never done it. And I was like more or less an experiment and I was like, all right, this experiment's working.

I think I'm gonna keep doing it.

Brian : It's, it's like so basic and so simple, but it's like, to me it's like, it does reward quality and effort. You know, like, like literally if you just put a lot of care and effort and, and can and solve a problem for, for readers or for viewers, like the platform does reward that. Whereas if you do the same effort and publish it on your own blog.

You need all these, all these like technical wins, you need backlinks. You need some level of luck. You need to compete against [00:20:00] the top, the front page of Google. Like

Justin Ferriman: Yeah.

Brian : you know, there's, it just seems like an uphill battle if you're trying to grow an audience from scratch, you know?

Justin Ferriman: It is. Yeah, I, I would recommend people check out Medium for sure. I also tested the long form on, on X because with the no characters, pretty much, I mean, whatever their character limit is, I wrote like a blog

post in X, which I was like, I don't know if it's gonna be obnoxious or not but I'm gonna try it in. The visibility that it got was huge and I got like two meetings from that just 'cause I, at the end of it I was like, Hey, if you're interested, like book some time with me. And two, two people booked timing me. So for me, I was like, well, that was worth it.

Brian : For this type of business, like a, a small coaching thing, like two is all you need, you know,

Justin Ferriman: yeah.

Yeah, it was just, it was nice. It just kind of fill the

pipeline which has been, it's been fun, you know, coming from the product space and now in the service it's a little more high touch, a little bit different of an angle and marketing, which I love. And so it's been a fun experiment.

Brian : Very cool. Well, Justin, I mean, super interesting story. It's been really cool to follow your, your work, [00:21:00] especially in the last, like two or three years here. So I'm just excited to, to keep following along. Really, really

Justin Ferriman: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, I'm glad we got this time to chat and talk shop. I'm surprised we haven't talked shop more often.

Brian : Yeah, we'll have to do it again. So we'll get all your stuff, you know, linked up in the show notes. But yeah, thanks for coming on

Justin Ferriman: No, thanks for having me.

Brian : all.