Product vs. Creator Businesses
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Brian: [00:00:00] You're about to hear my conversation with Aaron Francis, where we bat around the differences between running a products business versus running a creator business. Let's get into it.

So I'm about to roll the interview with my friend, Aaron Francis, where we talked all about the differences between running a products business versus running a creator business. And of course, in a lot of cases, there's a, there's a lot of overlap between the two.

We recorded this conversation on November 16th, 2023. And and I think it was a really good one. So here we go. Here is my conversation with Aaron. Enjoy.

Conversations across podcasts
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Brian: Aaron Francis, great to connect with you. Like we were talking off air just now, I feel like, I feel like I just got off a different call with you because I just like stopped listening to your podcast like 45 minutes ago. But we are, live in the flesh,

Aaron: Yeah. It's good to be here. [00:01:00] I was just listening to you and Jordan also

and I was, I listened to that episode the other day and you said My, or I think Jordan said my name when I was talking about, you know, setting up a, a studio and a workspace and YouTube, and I was like, Hey, these are my friends talking about me, but I can't talk back.

So it's, it's good to be here where I can talk back to you.

Brian: It's so funny, right? Like, that happens to me like a, a bunch like somebody, whether it's like someone like you and Ian or or someone else would like mention me by name in, in their podcast. And it really takes me by surprise. Like, you know, 'cause I, I usually tune into to a bunch of folks in our industry and then, and we're talking about, and we're thinking about a lot of the same topics and and it just re and it's almost like, wait, did I hear that correctly?

It's so weird. Yeah. Like, we feel like we're famous, but we're totally not. It's like a group of like a hundred of us who just listen to each other's podcasts.

Aaron: That is exactly right. Yeah. I I found that like, you get, you get unfair you get unfair, like accolades or [00:02:00] perception by having a podcast.

It's like, oh wow, he's got a podcast. It's like, yeah, but it's the same people. It's like the same, like you said, 50 or a hundred people, and we all have podcasts and we all talk to each other, so

it's like, I don't think it really counts

for very much, but boy, is it fun.

Brian: I, I always make the, the fun joke, which I think is sort of true when I'm at MicroComp or you and I got to hang out in person

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Brian: This, last time. I always feel like when I'm there, like basically all of our podcast listeners are there in the room, and, and that's all of them there.

there's not many more outside of that room, you know?

Aaron: Yep, that's exactly right. And when you tell, like when you tell someone outside of our industry, like maybe like a normal person that's not one of us, that you have a podcast, they're like, oh wow. You're like, you know, armchair experts or you're like, you know, any of the NPR podcasts, and you kind of have to explain, ah, no, it's very, very different than that.

Brian: Yeah. Or, or my parents, they're like, oh, podcast. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I'm not interested. I don't wanna listen. So,

Aaron: Yes, [00:03:00] Yes, exactly.

Brian: thing with my wife,

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I asked my wife if she watches my my videos or listens to my podcast, and she's like, I don't think so. Which one? I'm like, yeah,

Brian: Right? What's the name of it again? Oh, like the one that I've been doing for like 10 years. Yeah. No. Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Brian: so

Aaron's "era of maximum effort"
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Brian: I, I feel like you've been, you've become known for many things in, in this industry, but one thing that has come up again and again from your, from, from you talking about it, or on the podcast airwaves or Twitter and whatnot, is this.

This phrase that, that I think you, you sort of coined, at least for yourself, is this era of maximum effort.

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Brian: And I, for when I first heard you talk about it, I, it immediately resonated and I was immediately excited that someone is like, voicing this idea that like, you don't have to, like, not everything has to be calm and work life

Aaron: Mm-Hmm. . Yep.

Brian: Like of, [00:04:00] of course you have to have balance. Of course we, we spend time with our kids and our families and, and we take time off. Like that's a given,

Aaron: Mm-Hmm?

Brian: but there hustle is, doesn't have to be a, a bad word, you know? It's, it's gotten kind of a bad rap. So I, I just think that I, I just want to like commend you on like, bringing that to light and like sharing it publicly, like look, like if you wanna build something, if you're ambitious in your career, yeah.

You gotta, you probably gotta work a lot more than 40 hours in a week, you know?

Aaron: Yeah, and it's okay. Like. It's okay to want things out of your life and try really, really hard to get them. And I think it's interesting that like in our, in our little world, there is a huge focus on like, you know, being calm and, you know, working around the rest of your life and lots of things that are really, really great.

And I think it's probably one of those things where it's like a pendulum has swung one way and now it's swinging back the other. [00:05:00] And, you know, there's a, there's a, like a theme or a thread of a conversation that has just continued on for like, the past, you know, 50 years or whatever. But the way that I see it now and the way that I, like, I think part of the thing is it made me feel a certain way to watch people, um, not denigrate, but also Like not really, not really celebrate working hard. And it was a certain, it almost feels like there's a certain group of people in our community or on Twitter that have quote unquote made it for whatever, you know, whatever vector or access you wanna call making. Usually that's like money or having a big SaaS application or something. They've made it and then they're like, Hey, I've made it, and you know what? It turns out working less is better than working more. And I'm like, yeah, I bet

I .I, I totally believe that, but. At some point, like you just have to work really, really [00:06:00] hard to get to that place where you can, you know, be that semi-retired like SaaS operator.

And I'm just, I'm not there. And I felt this tension between what I like want in the future and what people are telling me is really good. And my, the reality of like where I am and where I am is very much in the building phase. And I think for me, giving it a name of like this is, this is the era that I'm in.

It won't last forever. It is a specific era and the era that I'm in is the maximum effort era. And I need to just try really, really hard if I want to get certain things outta my life and that like just naming it and releasing the fact that I'm not in my, you know, show up to my desk at 11:00 AM answer some emails and then go play with the kids at 2:00 PM That was helpful for me.

Brian: Totally. And it's so much about the mental game, especially when we're, when we're doing this like build in public thing and we're on Twitter and we're on podcasts and, and it's, it's too hard [00:07:00] at least for me to like, not compare myself to my friends and their SaaS businesses and their, and their career trajectories.

Right. But I I, I really respect what you're saying here because it's like, it's, it, it is a pendulum, but it's also a pendulum for each individual person based on your, your current circumstance and the stage of where you're at in, in life and in career. Right. With, with the folks who like, quote unquote made, made it and who talk about this, this concept of like, oh, it, it turns out like you could work less, or, oh, it's actually a lot simpler to, to be successful with this, this, or that business.

I think, I think most people generally mean well, and there could be some truth to the idea of like. actually just one or two key factors that make a, a difference in the trajectory of, of a business. Like you, you nail one marketing channel, you hit product market fit with the right product for the right customer at the right time.

Like, [00:08:00] that's true. Like that stuff doesn't have to be com It usually doesn't end up being very complicated once you find it. But when you're, when you're on the path to finding it and you're searching and you're, and as my buddy Jordan likes to call it, like you're, you're wandering the desert,

you know, there's this period of runway which can last years and, and it's weird.

Like I find myself kind of back in that spot now. I, I had, I, I had gained a certain level of like financial freedom and with one or two, like, I like to think of them as like base hits businesses. , but those have sort of like run their course now. And now I'm sort of back to, to it, not square one, but like back to thinking through like, all right, I do kind of have to hustle or piece together or start to split my focus between building something or sustaining something and then trying to pay the bills or, or bill [00:09:00] or diversify my betts, if you will.

I think that's another thing that I, that I struggle with, with like the narrative in the industry, which is like, I hear this a lot. It's like

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Focus vs. many "small bets"
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Brian: you gotta focus on one single business. And, and, and there's a lot of, and, and this one really starts to like get to me a little bit because there's a lot of like sentiment around like, you cannot be successful unless you are only doing one business.

Aaron: Yep.

Brian: And I think it's a very different situation when you already have one business that is. Profitable and sustainable versus like trying to spin up something on the side so that you can get out of your current situation. Right.

You're, you like, there's just no way around it. Like you logistically have to split your time at, at some point.

You know, I'm

Aaron: Yeah. The whole,

Brian: with, with like

Aaron: the whole like single bet versus, you know, many small betts thing is just so [00:10:00] weirdly contentious. On Twitter, people are just so, like, sure that it must be one way or the other. And shockingly I think there needs to be more nuance around the discussion, which is, you know, not really what Twitter was built for.

I think. I, I think, I think a lot of things. One is I think personally I am more, like, I'm more given to trying to keep many things moving forward. And I've had to, I've had to like kind of define how I'm gonna do that recently, um, because as you know, but not everyone does. I have 2-year-old twins. I have twins on the way. I mean, I'm, they literally could be here at any moment. So I'm about to have four kids under three. And I have a full-time job, right? And so I. There's a lot of stuff that I wanna do with my life, and in terms of the single bet versus [00:11:00] the many small betts, I have found that having many small but somewhat related activities going on, all kind of going the same general direction, has been the way, one, the way that I want to live my life. And two, has been the way that I have found success. And so I think the conversation around should you go all in on one thing and or should you do a bunch of loosely related things? It, it just super depends. It, it depends on what your, what, what you want out of your life. It depends on how you work personally, it depends on what your goals are professionally, depends on It depends on how much money you're making, like

the whole thing, the whole conversation is dependent.

Would I personally have a, have a a SaaS application that I'm trying to grow and then start a new SaaS that I then have to grow? I wouldn't do that,

but would I start like, you're doing what I start a SaaS that I'm trying to grow and then do productized coaching or [00:12:00] consulting? Yes. I would absolutely do that. And like what I'm doing personally is I've got several different like content things going and I find that all of those kind of help each other, kind of boost each other. They are a little bit discreet but it's all the same universe and they're all headed the same direction and I find that each one helps the other. And I just really like doing a couple of different

things and I don't, I don't think that that's necessarily bad.

Brian: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I, I like to think about it like, earlier in my career I did a lot more things than I do now, but that was actually beneficial in many ways. Like, it, it was a way to diversify income and generate an income, but it was also like, by literally by doing different things, I become known for things like, I like creating and shipping things is, is what makes people tune into what you're doing.

They, like, you can't just build an audience without actually doing anything. Like you ha people need a reason to, to [00:13:00] follow your story of what you're doing. So that, I think that really

Aaron: And I, I, I've also found that like, I don't know, I've done so many things and I've been very public about 'em, and a lot of them have not worked. And yes, that is, that can be very embarrassing to be like, I'm doing this thing, and then later be like, oh, well that didn't super work.

But the way that I've ended up where I am, which I think is a good place for me, is I've done a lot of things and the things that are now working. are the things that people gave me positive signals on early on.

And so like if I'm putting 10 things out there and everyone on Twitter is saying, wow, these two things are great, that's very helpful.

and, and, and like, I don't know how you get there. Maybe I don't think I'm as smart as other people think they are, but I don't know how you get there out of thin air.

Like the only way that I know how to get there personally is to experiment. Put the stuff out there and people say, like, Aaron, [00:14:00] it's great that you're building a SaaS. I don't care about that. What I really want from you is I want you to make more YouTube videos and I

want you to teach me how to record screencasts.

And it's like, oh, okay, well since you are the market, maybe I should listen to you instead of banging my head against the sass wall that nobody caress about.

Brian: Yep. Dude, you're, you're speaking to so much of, of where I'm finding myself after years of, of doing that too. All right. But I had a question for you that I'm, I'm, I am actually really wondering about, about you and your and, and your era of, of maximum effort here. Like, 'cause you, like you said, you, you, you are doing the, the job.

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Brian: do have a growing family, you've got, but I also see that you are involved in multiple different products or

e even beyond just products themselves, like different types of paths, right? So.

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

What are your goals as a creator?
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Brian: lIke, would you say that like, your goal at this point is to, is to grow your [00:15:00] entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial career as a creator, like a, like a YouTube content creator Twitter newsletter, like a course creator with, with screencasting.com, or sell products or, or grow a SaaS product or, or both.

Like how, how are you thinking about like your, your ideal pathway to, to growing in this industry?

Aaron: Yeah, I have a pretty, I have a very short answer and then I can expand, not products,

just content. And that, that's one of the things, that's one of the things that I've like learned by trying things recently. You know, my partner Colleen and I, business partner Colleen and I, were working on a, a SaaS product for a really long time.

It just really went nowhere.

And it was like, it just, we just kept working on it and it was just going nowhere. And then, you know, I started doing some content stuff for work, which I work at Planet Scale database company, and I started making videos and, and I did one or two videos for [00:16:00] my personal YouTube channel and people, it just, like, one, it was really, really easy for me.

I felt like, ah, this is, I could just make content all day long.

This is fun. And then two, the response was. Aaron, we want you to make more content. Please give us more videos. And so I was working on both of those things at once. And one was really hard and was not working, and one was really easy and it worked really well.

And I was like, what am I doing here?

And so my, my, my new, like the Galaxy of Aaron, the Empire but like in a not bad way, the Empire of Aaron in a good way is create as much content as I possibly can.

Whether that's, you know, for work or for my personal YouTube or screencasting.com. Because the thing that people continue to tell me is, we really like the way that you teach.

And like, you're, you're good at teaching and you're an encouragement. And I'm like, that's all I, that's like what I want to do with my life is be an encouraging teacher. [00:17:00] And I think there are a lot, a lot, a lot of people that can make really good SaaS applications. And I don't know if I'm one of them, but I think there are maybe not as many people that can like Do the public content creation because it's frankly really scary and really intimidating. And so I'm trying to lean into what I'm good at and what people are telling me they want from me.

Brian: I love it, man. You know, we're gonna go deeper on YouTube growth and, and video content in general in, in the next section here. But you know, I had a, a, a. I dunno if this is a note or a question, but it's like figuring out our path of, of least uncertainty. You know, it seems like for you, you, you've landed on this concept of, I, I love how you just said it, like not products, just creating content.

Like that's, that's the path for you. And, and that seems like the path of least uncertainty, like people are responding they're, they're showing you positive reinforcement. Like yes, you're on the right track with this. It feels good for you. Obviously it plays to your [00:18:00] strengths. Right? I mean, I, you know, it's weird.

I, I think I am, I'm somewhat coming to a point of alignment, but a little bit differently right now. So, you know, I've, I've started to become like a little bit more public on, on Bootstrap Web about where I've ended up at this point with my SaaS product clarity flow, which is still very much going and I, and I intend for this SaaS business and product to continue.

But. I'm now. So Clarity Flow itself is, so before this it, it was called Zip Message and before that I had a SaaS called Process Kit. And before that I actually had a little SaaS attempt called Ops Calendar and then a couple of other smaller ones in between like Sunrise, K, PI, a

Aaron: Sunrise. I

remember that. Yeah.

Brian: And so, so I've been on this journey to trying to make a SaaS business work,

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Brian: you know, and I had a, a thing called Audience ops, which is like [00:19:00] a, a productized service business that, that did fairly well, profitable, paid my bills for a number of years there.

But a, a big part of that goal of having that business was to free me up to, to get to a SaaS. And, and, and about every two or three years, for the past seven or eight years now, I've been trying to get a SaaS idea to work. And now here I sit with this SaaS and I'm now three years into it. And it hasn't reached that like escape velocity where it's a hundred percent profitable and sustainable and, and it's just a thing that I can, like, grow sustainably forever.

It it, it has a runway and, and the runway is gonna be running out. And so it, it, now here I sit as, as we come up on like the turn into 2024, it's like, I don't have the energy or really, frankly, the, the interest to just start again with another SAS idea, you know? But I, but it's also like, [00:20:00] I, like, I, I'm, I'm coming to terms with the, with the idea that like, you know what, maybe the SAS dream is just not gonna pan out for me.

Aaron: Yep.

Brian: But the content creator path is something that I sort of dabbled in, in the past. I, I

actually made pretty good money when I was selling the, the productized course. But I've always treated like the content and the. Creator and the, and the video and the podcasting stuff as like, sort of just for fun while I try to do a real, a quote unquote real business

Aaron: A real, no, that is a hundred percent correct. Yes.

Yes. I really feel that.

Yeah.

Brian: Yeah. But like, my thinking on it now is like, I'm still interested in doing SaaS products

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Brian: long as those are the side projects. Tho those need to be the, the little plants that I can like water every now and then, but the main money maker or the main profit engine, or the main interest and focus area needs to, I sort of need to go back to my roots and get, get back into like the creator mindset, [00:21:00] you know?

Aaron: YeAh. Yeah. I, I, I mean in terms of like giving up the dream, I really FI like, I felt that big time. I was like, wait, everything, I like the startups for the rest of us and MicroComp, everything is build a SaaS app. And you know, I don't think that's technically true. Rob has talked many times about stair stepping and,

but you know, my perception of everything is SaaS is the dream and SaaS is the only way. And I think SaaS is amazing and I would love to have a profitable, profitable SaaS application, but. I also think there are other paths, and as I've gotten into this content creating stuff, I've found one that I enjoy it a lot more, which cannot be like, it cannot be discounted

that I'm having a lot of fun doing this. We talk about burnout a lot, and I think the ultimate cure for burnout is fun and success. Like I'm having a lot of fun and it's [00:22:00] working. Yeah. I've got a lot of energy

When, when, when you're not having, when you're not having fun and it's not working, every day feels like a punch in the face.

And it's like, yeah, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna burn out

because that sucks.

Brian: You know, I, I think I, yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

Aaron: No, I was just gonna say, so I think that can't be, I, I think that can't be discounted, but also there, there's money in content creation. Like it's not, it's not, you know, put in a ton of effort and get, you know, tens of dollars off of YouTube ads. Like,

ThEre's other ways. Yeah.

Brian: I definitely want to dig into that whole model of YouTube and like the creator style business because like the, the thing that I'm sort of getting excited about now, like this month, is I'm, I'm breaking out of that, like living in fear. I think. I think for a while I was living in fear of if this SaaS doesn't work, then I'm a total failure at entrepreneurship in general.

And and, and I'm, [00:23:00] and I'm coming to terms with like, look, there are many ways to be successful in u using the skillset that people like us have, whether it's software, content creation, marketing, like, many ways to be successful and, and it doesn't have to actually follow the same linear path that a lot of our friends and peers

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Brian: have, have, have been able to build.

You know,

Aaron: Seem seemingly, you look at, you look at somebody's path now and it looks linear like in hindsight. But we, we, we have to remember let's take somebody who is a success in our community. Justin Jackson, you have to remember back to 20, whatever, 17, 18, 19 when he did the MegaMaker project. And he did a hundred things in a year and it was like they were all completely random up to, and including making a burrito was one of the episodes.

It's like, I'm gonna make a hundred things, one of which is a burrito. And you look at that now and you're like, like if you look at that at a, as a point in time of whatever year it was, 2018 or 19, [00:24:00] you think this guy is all over the map.

What is he doing? And you look at Justin Jackson now and he is like, I have a single. SaaS application that makes enough money to employ a bunch of people. And I live this nice easy lifestyle and you're like, wait, those are just a point in time matters a ton. And you know,

Justin's path was not linear. And for me, you know, for me it's a little bit embarrassing to be like, Hey, I tried this SaaS thing for two or three or four years and it didn't work and I'm gonna, frankly, I'm gonna give it up.

Like this particular idea, I'm gonna give it up. And that sucks. Like that's, that's a public embarrassment. But I realized that like I would much rather, I would much rather be embarrassed and move on and continue to like plow forward into what I want my future to be than for the sake of not being embarrassed work on this thing that doesn't work

for the next several years.

Like, what am I gonna do with my life? Like I

I'd rather be embarrassed.

So I think like we look at these people and think linear for sure. And [00:25:00] then you listen to their podcasts from six years ago and you're like, ah, you were, you were all over the place, man.

The initial business idea really matters
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Brian: That that's very true. I mean, but one, one thing that Justin, I think does a really good job of, of pointing out he, he did more so like last year was like the idea of like the, the idea matters, like the initial kernel of the idea really, really matters because, you know, I've, I've found myself with a lot of my SaaS attempts being like, they reached some level of success.

They're not total failures, you know, but they're not knock it out of the park home run rocket ship growth. And you, you do sort of, there's, there is sort of like a luck factor. You, you, of course you gotta like spot these opportunities, but like, you know, nailing that product market fit is, is such a. If you don't fully nail it, you can go years and just be in this like mediocre state, but, you know.

Aaron: I think the

one, one of the ideas that Justin has really nailed is like the [00:26:00] wave. He, he

talks a lot about like riding the wave of the market. And I think that's one of his, one of his crispier like best clear ideas. And that is like when I was receiving feedback about content I was creating, that was in my mind.

I was like, oh, this is what he's talking about. This is the wave of the market pushing me towards this thing. And like that is making this really easy because the market is telling me what to do.

Brian: Yeah. So just to like sort of like wrap up this, this segment or this episode on, on like this maximum effort thing, I wanted to sort of like maybe get some clarity for, for listeners and I'm curious to know from you, um, 'cause I, I still feel kind of exhausted thinking about all the things that you're doing, , you know, how are you actually managing energy?

I. From day to day. I, I mean, I, I understand it, it involves putting in extra hours, probably more than

Aaron: It does for sure.

Brian: are

Aaron: Mm-Hmm?

Brian: But even just beyond the sheer hours and the [00:27:00] scheduling and the logistics, like

I personally, I don't have I, I can't like devote a lot of energy at nighttime to work projects.

I, I kind of have to be on Netflix at that point. Like how are you thinking about like, managing your creative energy, especially

creating content? I mean, how do you kind of stay effective at that?

Aaron: Yeah. So everything I'm about to say is descriptive of my life and not prescriptive to anyone. So nobody come at me for, for any of this. I definitely work more hours than is sustainable long term. That's, that's the first thing. I don't do I don't do late nights every night, but last night, for example, I was up recording videos at 1:00 AM and part of that is I'm about to go out on paternity leave.

And so I'm trying to bank videos for planet scale. And that's just like a personal decision. Nobody, you know, nobody at Planet Scale's forcing me to do it, but I am very invested in the growth of the Planet Scale YouTube channel. And so I'm just like, I'm just working super late at night. And [00:28:00] I think, you know, the, I think the first thing to note is. Like, I've eliminated a lot of things in, in my life. I don't, I don't, I just don't do a lot of other things right now. And I think a lot of new parents probably can resonate with that, that they just don't do a lot of other things. Like I,

unfortunately, I don't play indoor soccer anymore. That kind of ended around covid and I haven't picked it back up, even though I would love to. I don't watch sports just 'cause I don't super care. I don't watch a lot of tv which I do love, but I just don't do it right now. And my wife is a full-time stay-at-home mom. And so, like during the day I'm not on dad duty during the day the kids are at school and then my wife, you know, will pick 'em up.

And so during the day I'm like fully into work and then around five 30 or six, like I'm outta here. I am outta this room. I am going to help with, with dinner and playtime and wrestle and then bedtime. And then after that I do come back in here and continue to work. And so [00:29:00] right now my schedule is a lot of like Work and kids,

and that's about it.

Brian: I mean,

Aaron: I'm okay with that.

How to find a break and relax?
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Brian: what about like, relaxation? How are you unwinding? How are you giving? Like literally giving like the brain, some, some rest. I mean, for, for me, like actually like watching TV is in pretty essential for me. Like, I, like, I, I actually need to watch a show for two hours every night to, to like turn my brain off and just be in consumption mode and get into sleep and then I, and then I come back hard in the morning, you know, like, how, how are you?

Aaron: One, one is that I swi I switch projects. I mean, that, that is helpful for me. Like I'll go from recording a, a recording, a planet scale video on databases to potentially writing an article or doing a little bit of coding or something like that. And I'm like, that's, that's refreshing to me. 'cause there's a big mental shift from, I'm like, I'm in like. Public persona mode where I'm on camera trying [00:30:00] to be excited and keep people's attention, and then I can turn off all the lights and put on my hoodie and like code. And that feels like relaxation to me. That's like, oh, thank God, I can finally

just be quiet. And then I also, I also take a lot of walks these days. So I'll throw in, I'll throw in a podcast or an audio book, and I'll just walk around the block for like 45 minutes or an hour, even at nine 30 at night. I'll just

like, walk in the dark and

it's just, that is very, Yeah,

it's really great. It's really relaxing and I find that like all of the like stuff starts to fall into place while I'm, while I'm walking, like the brain starts to sift every, everything and starts to generate ideas.

And then I come back and I'm like, Hey, that was a pretty good idea. I should write that down.

Brian: for sure. I do. I, I try to work out every day now, like, and it's the first thing that I do in the morning, and usually I'm doing like strength stuff like three days a week. But on the alternate days, I'm, I'm walking like two or three miles in the morning and it's, and, and I'm at the point now, I've been doing [00:31:00] it for a couple years where it's like I have to, I like, I feel uncomfortable the rest of the day if I don't get.

Get those steps in. Like it's, it's somehow like mentally refreshing. For sure.

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love, I love taking walks 'cause I can just cruise and I, our block is not huge, but I just cruise in as many circles as I need to go in. I just continue to go until I feel like, okay, my, I've settled, I've settled down the noise a little bit. I can come back in and start to produce a little more.

Brian: Love it. So that's our chat on the era of maximum effort. Again, I just want to say like, so much of, of what you talk about and where you're at right now is really resonating in many ways with where I'm at right now. So this is really exciting. sO, you know, thank you Aaron.

Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. I love, I love talking about it. So thanks for, thanks for bringing

it up.